Cornell vs Michigan vs Berkeley (other schools too) Forum

[xz01]

-The schools you are considering

Cornell - Michigan - Berkeley - GULC - Vanderbilt - WUSTL

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.

Haven't negotiated yet but I don't think I have good leverages to get more money from Cornell (top choice)

Cornell: 159k

Michigan: 142k

Berkeley: assume sticker because I haven't heard anything

GULC: Put on "alternate" so also assume sticker

Vanderbilt: 119k

WUSTL: Full tuition scholarship so just COL

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

A mix of my savings, parents, and probably loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

I have no ties in the US, from Belgium where there are many biglaw offices.

-Your general career goals

Biglaw - I'm foreign so I need biglaw to be sponsored for a visa. My goal is to last as long as possible and hopefully be able to transfer back to Europe (Belgium or France)

[Tls2016]

1. The loans are from your country?
2. Cornell is best for NYC biglaw.
3. You can't assume you will get a visa. Once the H1B goes into lottery, you have to win the lottery to get a visa. It looks like it will be going into lottery for the future unless the law changes. If that happens, will you be employable in your country or somewhere else?
Honestly your only certain bet to stay in the US is to marry an American citizen. I would gun for that as well as doing well in school.

[xz01]

1. The loans are from your country?
2. Cornell is best for NYC biglaw.
3. You can't assume you will get a visa. Once the H1B goes into lottery, you have to win the lottery to get a visa. It looks like it will be going into lottery for the future unless the law changes. If that happens, will you be employable in your country or somewhere else?
Honestly your only certain bet to stay in the US is to marry an American citizen. I would gun for that as well as doing well in school.

1. Yes but my parents will help for most of the costs I believe
3. I know that getting a visa is difficult; however, I can use CPT for the summer and OPT for the year after graduation. This will give me more time to organize my visa application. And yes, marrying an American citizen would be the easiest.

I was also wondering where I should start with negotiations because I know Michigan doesn't really negotiate and I have no other real options for Cornell.

[fliptrip]

I completely agree that you underperformed your numbers. Cornell seems like the clear choice here. Just show them your WUSTL scholarship and ask for more money. You can do that with total sincerity since they are your top choice.

[Hand]

Is that GPA from a US school? If yes, you are underperforming your numbers. If not, I think you're basically getting what you should expect.

From these options, Cornell is obviously your best best for getting a big law job. But if you ultimately want to work in Belgium, why not just get a law degree there? The whole thing'll probably cost you less than one year of tuition at Cornell after the discount.

As to negotiations, there's no harm in asking Mich for more (all school try to make you believe they don't have money to negotiate or whatever, it's mostly BS or at least ought to be treated as such) and you can definitely try to leverage your current WUSTL offer at Cornell, by pointing out the vast difference in cost of attendance, etc.

ETA and don't tell us you can't "take a year off." Of course you can wait a year to start law school. Law school isn't going anywhere. And you wouldn't be "taking it off" if you're smart; you'd get a job and get some work experience, which is both intrinsically valuable as well as useful when you're hustling for internships and a job.

[xz01]

It is from a US college. I have some small C&F issues from college (getting written up by RAs) but other than that I don't really understand why I have such limited options.

I have a job right now at an NGO but I'm getting bored and losing one more year of high salary is not the best choice anymore, in my opinion.

I think I'm just gonna go ahead and start negotiating with Michigan and then see with Cornell.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I don't really think he underperformed his numbers...his LSAT isn't that good.

That said, why do you want a US law degree? If you are taking out loans, won't your loans be private since you can't qualify for US federal loans? How much are you going to take out in loans?

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

Why not look at European/British programs? What about Cambridge/Oxford? In general European/British programs are much cheaper and shorter than 3 years...

Also, no offense, but you have no idea what it's like working in biglaw and whether you will like it at all or want to do it for longer than a year or two. i say this as a midlevel - most people, frankly, hate it. And the money isn't that good for NYC/DC/etc. It's kind of crap money for the high COL and high tuition and opportunity costs and hours worked.

[Hand]

If you'd be eligible to retake by waiting another year, and pick up a few points, there's a good chance you'll be saving more money by increased scholarship than you'd be making in NYC big law.

Anyhow, if you're set on going, and Cornell doesn't respond favorably to your trying to leverage what you've got now, bear in mind that there's always the option of just saying that it's too expensive with your current scholarship, because e.g. you aren't eligible for federal loans in the US and such, but that if they give you XXX more (some not too big but also not too small amount), you'll commit. They've made clear they do want you to come; from what I've seen last year, there's a decent chance they'll knock off at least another 5k/yr (perhaps even as much as 10k) just to make stop asking, even if you have no leverage.

[fliptrip]

LOL. This dude is underperforming his numbers. He got the WL at Duke and Chicago...he should have been in.

[Hand]

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

If your classmates clerked, they must have been U.S. citizens, since otherwise it's no bueno on the clerkship front (except for Hawaii).

[xz01]

I don't really think he underperformed his numbers...his LSAT isn't that good.

That said, why do you want a US law degree? If you are taking out loans, won't your loans be private since you can't qualify for US federal loans? How much are you going to take out in loans?

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

Why not look at European/British programs? What about Cambridge/Oxford? In general European/British programs are much cheaper and shorter than 3 years...

Also, no offense, but you have no idea what it's like working in biglaw and whether you will like it at all or want to do it for longer than a year or two. i say this as a midlevel - most people, frankly, hate it. And the money isn't that good for NYC/DC/etc. It's kind of crap money.

My parents are willing to help and if I have to take out loans, it's probably going to be in Belgium through my dad.

I understand that it would be harder for a foreigner but it's what I've wanted for a long time and to be honest, I haven't done all of this to give up at the end.

As for the underperformance, most people with my stats get into Duke with a "good" scholarship, UVA and Chicago, most of the times...

[xz01]

LOL. This dude is underperforming his numbers. He got the WL at Duke and Chicago...he should have been in.

Thanks for the picture, didn't know how to upload it.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

If your classmates clerked, they must have been U.S. citizens, since otherwise it's no bueno on the clerkship front (except for Hawaii).

And except for Alaska apparently. But I think they fit description number 4 below (lawful permanent resident...)

Current appropriations law prohibits the use of appropriated funds to pay the compensation of any employee of the U.S. federal government where the duty location is in the continental U.S. unless such person:

is a U.S. citizen;
is a person who owes allegiance to the U.S. (i.e., nationals of American Samoa, Swains Island, and the Northern Mariana Islands, and nationals who meet other requirements described in 8 U.S.C. 1408);
is a person admitted as a refugee or granted asylum who has filed a declaration of intention to become a lawful permanent resident and then a citizen when eligible; or
is a lawful permanent resident who is seeking citizenship as outlined in 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)(B).

https://oscar.uscourts.gov/citizenship_requirements

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

LOL. This dude is underperforming his numbers. He got the WL at Duke and Chicago...he should have been in.

Maybe he had really shit prior LSAT scores? I know supposedly highest scores matter, but.......

[xz01]

I don't really think he underperformed his numbers...his LSAT isn't that good.

That said, why do you want a US law degree? If you are taking out loans, won't your loans be private since you can't qualify for US federal loans? How much are you going to take out in loans?

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

Why not look at European/British programs? What about Cambridge/Oxford? In general European/British programs are much cheaper and shorter than 3 years...

Also, no offense, but you have no idea what it's like working in biglaw and whether you will like it at all or want to do it for longer than a year or two. i say this as a midlevel - most people, frankly, hate it. And the money isn't that good for NYC/DC/etc. It's kind of crap money.

My parents are willing to help and if I have to take out loans, it's probably going to be in Belgium through my dad.

I understand that it would be harder for a foreigner but it's what I've wanted for a long time and to be honest, I haven't done all of this to give up at the end.

As for the underperformance, most people with my stats get into Duke with a "good" scholarship, UVA and Chicago, most of the times...

If you'd be eligible to retake by waiting another year, and pick up a few points, there's a good chance you'll be saving more money by increased scholarship than you'd be making in NYC big law.

Anyhow, if you're set on going, and Cornell doesn't respond favorably to your trying to leverage what you've got now, bear in mind that there's always the option of just saying that it's too expensive with your current scholarship, because e.g. you aren't eligible for federal loans in the US and such, but that if they give you XXX more (some not too big but also not too small amount), you'll commit. They've made clear they do want you to come; from what I've seen last year, there's a decent chance they'll knock off at least another 5k/yr (perhaps even as much as 10k) just to make stop asking, even if you have no leverage.

That's what I was thinking. I am deadset on Cornell if I have no other options and if I had gotten 135k (ideally 150k), I would have already put my deposit.

ETA: I had a 163, so I guess it is shitty

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I don't really think he underperformed his numbers...his LSAT isn't that good.

That said, why do you want a US law degree? If you are taking out loans, won't your loans be private since you can't qualify for US federal loans? How much are you going to take out in loans?

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

Why not look at European/British programs? What about Cambridge/Oxford? In general European/British programs are much cheaper and shorter than 3 years...

Also, no offense, but you have no idea what it's like working in biglaw and whether you will like it at all or want to do it for longer than a year or two. i say this as a midlevel - most people, frankly, hate it. And the money isn't that good for NYC/DC/etc. It's kind of crap money.

My parents are willing to help and if I have to take out loans, it's probably going to be in Belgium through my dad.

I understand that it would be harder for a foreigner but it's what I've wanted for a long time and to be honest, I haven't done all of this to give up at the end.

As for the underperformance, most people with my stats get into Duke with a "good" scholarship, UVA and Chicago, most of the times...

But why do you want this? i think I'm the only one in this thread who is a biglaw attorney....people "want" biglaw for stupid reasons, and most end up unhappy.

I think your situation is a little risky, IMO. If I were you, I'd look at European/British programs more carefully.

[kingpin101]

You still haven't given a good reason as to why you want to come to the U.S. to study law.

[fliptrip]

It could be that the schools made their decisions on a previous LSAT without waiting for the new score to come in. Either way, something didn't go right.

But, that being said, Cornell with a more than $100k discount with a willingness to do NYC BigLaw is a fine outcome. OP, I assume you've done all the diligence you need to in order to understand the special circumstances facing a foreign law graduate trying to be employed at a US firm. If you've taken stock of those special risks and still want to do it, then best of luck to you.

And if you've gotten this far without learning that the vast majority of people who enter biglaw hate it with a deep passion and leave as soon as they can, then it's time to pump the brakes on this law school thing altogether.

[Tls2016]

Why don't you ask in the Ask an admission Dean thread that Mike Spivey has about your underperforming your numbers?
I'm not sure if foreign citizens have a different cut off. Maybe something else is off with your application?

[xz01]

Why don't you ask in the Ask an admission Dean thread that Mike Spivey has about your underperforming your numbers?
I'm not sure if foreign citizens have a different cut off. Maybe something else is off with your application?

I have a very compelling story (harsh upbringing, etc.). I do have a couple of c&f issues (too loud in the room and such)...

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

whysoseriousbiglaw: Why did you go into biglaw? Not to get into too much detail, I'm from a poor Southern European region and want to go back to my country at some point. I want to get some experience at some highly regarded firms to have experience, etc.

I understand that the experience can be awful and I've been on this forum since I was a senior in high school but to me, it's worth it.

Because I was stupid and naive about what it means to be a lawyer. I loved law school itself (who doesn't love school) but practicing is awful. And I am planning on leaving biglaw in the near future and maybe the practice of law.

I am in a better position financially though and I'm also a US citizen, so it was less risky for me.

I probably wouldn't go to law school again if I had the choice and I'd only go to law school if I had non-biglaw goals and knew what I wanted to do from the start that didn't involve biglaw. My friends who went into non profit work, etc. generally like their jobs (not everyone but a much higher percentage). Most of my friends in non profit, etc. NEVER HAD ANY LAW SCHOOL LOANS. I cannot emphasize this bit enough. There are like 5 billion rich kids in law school who go to do non profit, etc. and never consider doing biglaw - those are the types who should go to law school. The vast majority of people who go to law school shouldn't have.

[fliptrip]

I do have a couple of c&f issues (too loud in the room and such)...

Being too loud in a room may be a C&F issue you have to report, but it's not really a C&F issue.

[xz01]

I do have a couple of c&f issues (too loud in the room and such)...

Being too loud in a room may be a C&F issue you have to report, but it's not really a C&F issue.

Then I don't know since many people (pretty much everyone who read my PS and DS) told me it was really good.

whysoseriousbiglaw: Why did you go into biglaw? Not to get into too much detail, I'm from a poor Southern European region and want to go back to my country at some point. I want to get some experience at some highly regarded firms to have experience, etc.

I understand that the experience can be awful and I've been on this forum since I was a senior in high school but to me, it's worth it.

Because I was stupid and naive about what it means to be a lawyer. I loved law school itself (who doesn't love school) but practicing is awful. And I am planning on leaving biglaw in the near future and maybe the practice of law.

I am in a better position financially though and I'm also a US citizen, so it was less risky for me.

I probably wouldn't go to law school again if I had the choice and I'd only go to law school if I had non-biglaw goals and knew what I wanted to do from the start that didn't involve biglaw. My friends who went into non profit work, etc. generally like their jobs (not everyone but a much higher percentage). Most of my friends in non profit, etc. NEVER HAD ANY LAW SCHOOL LOANS. I cannot emphasize this bit enough. There are like 5 billion rich kids in law school who go to do non profit, etc. and never consider doing biglaw - those are the types who should go to law school. The vast majority of people who go to law school shouldn't have.

I totally understand this but I'm willing to take the risk.


I started this thread also to get some advice on negotiating: do you guys think I should just use WUSTL, Vandy and Cornell at Michigan and then go from there. Again I'm willing to put my deposit at Cornell directly if I get a good offer.

[fliptrip]

I guess I'm a little confused. If you wanted to live in the US long term and believed that practicing law was your best way to achieve that, I get it. But how does getting a US law degree and working in a US-based firm eventually lead to you getting back to Belgium? How would that work exactly? Would you be practicing law back in Belgium? I honestly don't know.

[Tls2016]

whysoseriousbiglaw: Why did you go into biglaw? Not to get into too much detail, I'm from a poor Southern European region and want to go back to my country at some point. I want to get some experience at some highly regarded firms to have experience, etc.

I understand that the experience can be awful and I've been on this forum since I was a senior in high school but to me, it's worth it.

Why don't you ask in the Ask an admission Dean thread that Mike Spivey has about your underperforming your numbers?
I'm not sure if foreign citizens have a different cut off. Maybe something else is off with your application?

I had a company go over my application and they told me it was really really good (not bragging) because I have a very compelling story (harsh upbringing, etc.). I do have a couple of c&f issues (too loud in the room and such)...

I would ask anyway. Something seems wrong?
If your parents can pay for US law school yet they are poor, will you need to repay them? What happens financially if you don't get biglaw or have to return early or both?
I wouldn't assume you can get the training after graduation visa. I would contact some firms and ask about it.im not saying you can't, but look into it to be reassured about it.