Will W&M make me competitive enough for what I want to do? Forum

[megisanegg]

First time really visiting this site, so sorry for anything dumb I say. So far I've gotten a full ride to U of H, over 1/3 of my total expenses at SMU, wait listed at UT, and gotten into W&M (haven't found out financial aid offer yet, but it'll very likely be cheaper in total than SMU). Now I'm really only waiting on my top choice, Georgetown. I seriously doubt I'll get in there, and if by some miracle I did it would be at sticker price (aka hella expensive). I also haven't heard from Duke. My LSAT was 163, GPA 3.67. Last year I had some awful health problems that brought my GPA down from a 3.9, and I'm sure it affected my LSAT. But I started with a 158, and scored consistently around 165-ish so I figured that was a pretty fair score and decided against sitting out this cycle to retake. I applied with an addendum and hoped for the best.

These are my goals: I want to work in DC or at least a large city, and I want to be able to keep my debt under control and pay it off efficiently. I am interested in politics, government, and public policy. In an ideal world, I would like to be involved in the legislative liaison/lobbying arm of a nonprofit or political advocacy group. I'm also very interested in working as a legislative staffer or in an executive agency, particularly at the state department. I've seen W&M called a regional school, but I like it if I don't get into Georgetown because it's closest to DC. It's also the best place I've gotten in so far haha. Since I'm not exactly interested in working for a big private firm in DC, is it realistic to expect a W&M degree to lead to those kinds of jobs? If I get off the wait list for UT, would it be better for me to go there even though it's all the way in Texas since it's a significantly better school? (Btw I'm from Houston and much prefer Houston to Austin if I ended up staying in state)

I have other plans, I'm not dead set on this career path (especially since those jobs are pretty scarce) but this is always what I've kinda seen myself doing, I guess. I've always been a really good student up until this year and I'm at a good university with honors in 2 majors, so before this year I'd never really considered that I wouldn't get into at least one T14 school. It's kinda depressing to see those doors potentially closing. But this future plan is so vague that I'm not emotionally attached enough to it to justify sitting out a cycle. W&M is a perfectly good school for having a decently successful career if I do well there, and I really love the school/campus. I just want to know what my chances would be in that particular career path without going to a T14 and/or DC area school.

Sorry if these are really dumb questions. I don't know any attorneys and my pre law advisor has been pretty useless, so I've been like 100% in the dark for this entire process. Thanks in advance for your help!

Edit: if anyone is still interested, I have an update: after reading everything said here, talking to my pre-law advisor and my family, and doing a lot of soul-searching and research, I've come to a decision. I am preparing an LOCI to UT as we speak. If I do not end up getting pulled off of their wait list, I plan on taking time off, re-taking the LSAT, and reapplying.

I really thought about three things: debt, my specific career goals, and my geographic location. I decided that the potential of being stuck in backwater Virginia and away from family and friends is too much for me to handle. I also came to the realization that I love Houston despite my childish/stubborn resistance to staying in the same place. If I grew up anywhere else, Houston would be ideal for me, so why not let go of that idea? I also decided that I want to make enough money to live comfortably, even if it means working for a big firm or in the corporate world. There are opportunities to get involved in politics and campaigns as a private citizen, and chasing that career has the potential to ruin me financially if I go to a sub-par school with a lot of debt. I want a life outside of work.

Thanks for all of the harsh advice, I needed it.

[Clearly]

Forgetting your gpa, those doors closed when you decided not to retake. Retake.

[gingerbread]

I'm a 2L at W&M who will be working at a big DC firm this summer. I chose W&M over some Top 14 schools because I was really concerned about taking on unsustainable debt. I'm happy with that choice and W&M has gotten me where I need to go so far. This isn't the direction that I ultimately decided to go in, but I was interested in lobbying initially. I know that W&M has a decent network of alums doing that kind of work. When I was in my "exploratory phase" (hah that sounds really lame, sorry), the school set me up with 5-6 alums working in lobbying in DC that I was able to meet with for coffee. They were all in the lobbying branch of biglaw firms, but several started out by working on the hill for a few years.

W&M actually places very well in DC. Most of my friends will be working in firms or agencies there this summer. The school also gives you the option to spend one full semester externing there. There are several mini-courses that meet in DC a few times throughout the semester as well. For me, it's been a great way to get into the DC market without paying COL in DC during law school. That said, your mileage may vary. DC is still a competitive place. The W&M name is good there, but you will need to do reasonably well grade-wise to make it in any competitive market.

Also since you said you're interested in the State Department, W&M has some really cool international internships through the Center for Comparative Legal Studies and Post-Conflict Peacebuilding. If you're coming to campus for admitted students weekend or anything, you should definitely look into that and maybe set up a convo with professor Christie Warren.

[trebekismyhero]

If your health problems affected your LSAT and you can do better, retake. A couple more points will improve your job prospects and save you literally tens of thousands of dollars.

[TLSModBot]

Forgetting your gpa, those doors closed when you decided not to retake. Retake.

[megisanegg]

If your health problems affected your LSAT and you can do better, retake. A couple more points will improve your job prospects and save you literally tens of thousands of dollars.

This is the issue... I honestly believe that ~165 is my true ability. Before all that health crap started happening in February of 2015, I took a prep course and studied a decent amount in preparation for the February test (which I ended up not being able to take) and back then I was averaging around 165. I kinda made the judgement call that the 2 points isn't worth sitting out a year since it's so close to what my true score/ability is. I thought I would rather just go with my December score than retake in February, see if my academic addendum explaining my situation would work like my pre law advisor said it would, and then Reconsidering a retake/reapplication if it didn't.

165-ish is below the median for most of the t14 schools. My thought process was that this meant that I truly didn't have the ability that most students at these schools have. I told myself I'd go to a t14 if I got in with enough money, but as a true 165-er I had no business acting like t14 is the only acceptable option. I would have been lucky to get into one and even still my LSAT score indicated that I would probably struggle academically, in my opinion. It's not like I was averaging 171 before. I thought that either way I was better suited for schools ranked in the the 14-25ish range than the 14+ range.

But even with 20,000 or 30,000 dollars, the total cost of attendance at Georgetown with living and everything is so high that I'll be in a lot of debt. And realistically I couldn't hope for a bigger scholarship than that even if 2015 had been a normal year for me academically. I don't think I will ever get more than that no matter how many times I retake. If I get a relatively large aid package from W&M I don't think anything Georgetown could do would change my mind. Ugh, this is hard. I'm starting to consider withdrawing my apps, retaking in June or October, and reapplying next cycle.

Sorry for the rambling. I was awake all night last night, and thinking through these things is hard.

[BasilHallward]

You're a Texas resident I take it? I'd schedule a June retake and improve your score. UT may take you off the waitlist with $$. They did for me last year. That plus in-state tuition and a desire to work in Dallas/Houston (decent BigLaw chances) makes UT a viable choice. If not, sit out the cycle.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think you're placing too much weight on the LSAT as a signifier of your ability to do well in law school. Apart from the fact that you don't say what class you took or how you studied, every year tons of people with lower LSATs go to law school, succeed, transfer into schools they couldn't have originally gotten into, and continue to succeed once they get there. That's not saying you should expect to transfer, just that you shouldn't assume you'll struggle somewhere based on your current LSAT score.

[megisanegg]

I'm a 2L at W&M who will be working at a big DC firm this summer. I chose W&M over some Top 14 schools because I was really concerned about taking on unsustainable debt. I'm happy with that choice and W&M has gotten me where I need to go so far. This isn't the direction that I ultimately decided to go in, but I was interested in lobbying initially. I know that W&M has a decent network of alums doing that kind of work. When I was in my "exploratory phase" (hah that sounds really lame, sorry), the school set me up with 5-6 alums working in lobbying in DC that I was able to meet with for coffee. They were all in the lobbying branch of biglaw firms, but several started out by working on the hill for a few years.

W&M actually places very well in DC. Most of my friends will be working in firms or agencies there this summer. The school also gives you the option to spend one full semester externing there. There are several mini-courses that meet in DC a few times throughout the semester as well. For me, it's been a great way to get into the DC market without paying COL in DC during law school. That said, your mileage may vary. DC is still a competitive place. The W&M name is good there, but you will need to do reasonably well grade-wise to make it in any competitive market.

Also since you said you're interested in the State Department, W&M has some really cool international internships through the Center for Comparative Legal Studies and Post-Conflict Peacebuilding. If you're coming to campus for admitted students weekend or anything, you should definitely look into that and maybe set up a convo with professor Christie Warren.

Debt is a real worry for me too.

In your experience, how portable is a W&M degree for students who do very well academically? I've seen the geographic statistics, but I don't really think those faithfully represent portability for any law school. I definitely want to leave Texas and be in Virginia/DC for a long time, but as an only child I also want to come back when I'm much older to take care of my parents and to let my eventual kids get to know their family well. I'm very concerned about being mobile and I haven't seen anything encouraging about degree mobility for any of the schools I'm applying to haha.

I've heard that they place well in DC, that's great to hear! Thanks for sharing these anecdotes, they made me feel a lot less stressed haha.

[GreenEggs]

W&M actually places very well in DC. Most of my friends will be working in firms or agencies there this summer.

Not denying anything you're saying, but there are a lot of students who work at agencies during the summer that can't find full-time positions.

[megisanegg]

W&M actually places very well in DC. Most of my friends will be working in firms or agencies there this summer.

Not denying anything you're saying, but there are a lot of students who work at agencies during the summer that can't find full-time positions.

Is there a reliable source that has these stats (bonus points if it's all in one place)? Like not just eventual job placement for schools, but stats measuring how certain categories of legal summer jobs/internships translate into jobs in those fields after graduation. I'd be curious to see those if they exist.

[GreenEggs]

W&M actually places very well in DC. Most of my friends will be working in firms or agencies there this summer.

Not denying anything you're saying, but there are a lot of students who work at agencies during the summer that can't find full-time positions.

Is there a reliable source that has these stats (bonus points if it's all in one place)? Like not just eventual job placement for schools, but stats measuring how certain categories of legal summer jobs/internships translate into jobs in those fields after graduation. I'd be curious to see those if they exist.

I highly doubt it. But you can kind of see this when many gov offices and PI places take 40-50 clerks in the summer but only hire 2-4 people in the fall (many of which weren't there for the summer)

[megisanegg]

many gov offices and PI places take 40-50 clerks in the summer but only hire 2-4 people in the fall

yikes

[Clearly]

I took a course and busted my ass studying and was stuck at 164 for AGES. It seemed like that was where I could improve no further. Till eventually I did, by a lot. Don't sell yourself short, not for a multiple choice test worth thousands.

[zot1]

many gov offices and PI places take 40-50 clerks in the summer but only hire 2-4 people in the fall

yikes

This is, unfortunately, true. Specially the part where the people they end up hiring may not even have been prior interns.

[gingerbread]

I'm not looking to venture far beyond DC, so I'm not sure. W&M must have some presence in Texas though because we have an off-campus interview program there during OCI. Other options are NY, DC, and Boston -- so I always thought Dallas was pretty random and I'm not sure about the reasoning behind it. Maybe worth looking into though.

[PeanutsNJam]

You have a 15.3% chance of landing biglaw from W&M, and a 5.6% chance of getting a federal clerkship (surprisingly high fed clerk % actually).

It's one of those schools where you can have great outcomes if you're at the top of the class, but if you're not well then you're gonna have to settle.

[dclawyerhere]

First time really visiting this site, so sorry for anything dumb I say. So far I've gotten a full ride to U of H, over 1/3 of my total expenses at SMU, wait listed at UT, and gotten into W&M (haven't found out financial aid offer yet, but it'll very likely be cheaper in total than SMU). Now I'm really only waiting on my top choice, Georgetown. I seriously doubt I'll get in there, and if by some miracle I did it would be at sticker price (aka hella expensive). I also haven't heard from Duke. My LSAT was 163, GPA 3.67. Last year I had some awful health problems that brought my GPA down from a 3.9, and I'm sure it affected my LSAT. But I started with a 158, and scored consistently around 165-ish so I figured that was a pretty fair score and decided against sitting out this cycle to retake. I applied with an addendum and hoped for the best.

These are my goals: I want to work in DC or at least a large city, and I want to be able to keep my debt under control and pay it off efficiently. I am interested in politics, government, and public policy. In an ideal world, I would like to be involved in the legislative liaison/lobbying arm of a nonprofit or political advocacy group. I'm also very interested in working as a legislative staffer or in an executive agency, particularly at the state department. I've seen W&M called a regional school, but I like it if I don't get into Georgetown because it's closest to DC. It's also the best place I've gotten in so far haha. Since I'm not exactly interested in working for a big private firm in DC, is it realistic to expect a W&M degree to lead to those kinds of jobs? If I get off the wait list for UT, would it be better for me to go there even though it's all the way in Texas since it's a significantly better school? (Btw I'm from Houston and much prefer Houston to Austin if I ended up staying in state)

I have other plans, I'm not dead set on this career path (especially since those jobs are pretty scarce) but this is always what I've kinda seen myself doing, I guess. I've always been a really good student up until this year and I'm at a good university with honors in 2 majors, so before this year I'd never really considered that I wouldn't get into at least one T14 school. It's kinda depressing to see those doors potentially closing. But this future plan is so vague that I'm not emotionally attached enough to it to justify sitting out a cycle. W&M is a perfectly good school for having a decently successful career if I do well there, and I really love the school/campus. I just want to know what my chances would be in that particular career path without going to a T14 and/or DC area school.

Sorry if these are really dumb questions. I don't know any attorneys and my pre law advisor has been pretty useless, so I've been like 100% in the dark for this entire process. Thanks in advance for your help!

I frequently come in contact with attorneys from W&M, and they all seem to know other W&M Law graduates in the DC area. So, I suppose that bodes well for making it to town.

That said, I would think seriously before spending money to obtain a law degree if your goal is policy. If you want to be a legislative staffer, move to DC and start interning on Capitol Hill. Believe it or not, I know many people with law degrees who have done the same thing. 99.999% of the time, interning, unpaid, on Capitol Hill is the only way to break in. Now, whether a law degree gives you a leg up once you break in is another question. Truthfully, I've seen it work wonders for some, and do absolutely zilch for others.

A few anecdotes. Almost all the lawyer "lobbyists" I know were either chiefs of staffs on Capitol Hill, or worked in biglaw. In addition, reputable lobbying "shops" in town are typically embedded within the government relations practices at biglaw firms. Take for example, the notorious squire patton boggs. These shops are comprised of a handful of biglaw partners (and maybe some former congressmen), and many more recent undergraduates who hustle on the ground tracking legislation, drafting policy briefs, etc.

Outside of traditional lobbying is working for a non-profit or advocacy group. I work with many attorneys at these types of orgs, and you should know that this is an extremely difficult nut to crack. For example, nearly all the attorneys who serve as counsel for industry orgs such as the Business Software Alliance and Entertainment Software Assoc. came from biglaw. Even the softer, some would say less glamorous, orgs (Brady Center, HSUS, CAP, etc.) routinely cherry pick attorneys from top firms. Why? Because they can. DC is a hyper competitive legal market and people (a) hate working in biglaw, and (b) want to feel like they are saving the world.

In sum, if policy is your end goal you should think about whether law school is necessary at all. You will be spending three years (a huge opportunity cost) doing nothing policy-related. The fact is that you will likely graduate and have to accept unpaid/low paid/fellowship work to break in on the ground with a political office or policy shop. Once you're in, your salary will be commensurate with that of a recent undergraduate (and in policy, these salaries are greatly deflated, think ~40,000/yr.).

If you are extremely lucky, you will be able to hustle your way onto a House or Senate Committee as counsel. However, most of the legislative counsel I know got their start in biglaw.

Good luck!

[megisanegg]

Forgetting your gpa, those doors closed when you decided not to retake. Retake.

Thanks for the blunt advice. After lots of thought, I'm doing everything I can to get off the UT waitlist and then if that doesn't happen I'm going to withdraw and retake. I needed to hear this, so thank you for keeping me from taking a huge risk and potentially ruining myself financially. I appreciate it.

[Clearly]

Forgetting your gpa, those doors closed when you decided not to retake. Retake.

Thanks for the blunt advice. After lots of thought, I'm doing everything I can to get off the UT waitlist and then if that doesn't happen I'm going to withdraw and retake. I needed to hear this, so thank you for keeping me from taking a huge risk and potentially ruining myself financially. I appreciate it.

Yay! Don't sell yourself short, it can seem daunting but it's still just a multiple choice test with huge implications. I myself studied for months and months, courses and books and 30 prep tests, and plateaued at 164, official scored 164. Took a year off, decided the people with 170s didn't have anything I didn't have, raised my goal, buckled down and ended up 175+. I get really happy when I see people here decide that their future should be better than a low 160s outcome, because my career options ended up a whole lot better the day this site convinced me to retake.

[megisanegg]

Forgetting your gpa, those doors closed when you decided not to retake. Retake.

Thanks for the blunt advice. After lots of thought, I'm doing everything I can to get off the UT waitlist and then if that doesn't happen I'm going to withdraw and retake. I needed to hear this, so thank you for keeping me from taking a huge risk and potentially ruining myself financially. I appreciate it.

Yay! Don't sell yourself short, it can seem daunting but it's still just a multiple choice test with huge implications. I myself studied for months and months, courses and books and 30 prep tests, and plateaued at 164, official scored 164. Took a year off, decided the people with 170s didn't have anything I didn't have, raised my goal, buckled down and ended up 175+. I get really happy when I see people here decide that their future should be better than a low 160s outcome, because my career options ended up a whole lot better the day this site convinced me to retake.

For me, taking a year off made me anxious because I dreaded waiting another year to start my life and career. I didn't want to be 26 and just starting out, but I also don't want to spend years in a career I dislike working to pay off debt when I could have a much easier life. But one year is nothing compared to the rest of my life, I realized, and looking at the statistics for law grads is really a sobering awakening that made me realize just how dumb it would be to rush into a sub-par school when I can definitely have better choices with a few more points. I'm sure that everyone here who doesn't want to retake feels the same as I did/do, but thinking big picture is important.

[Clearly]

I started at 27 myself, don't regret it.