NDLS vs GW vs BU Forum

[smc1652]

Any help is much appreciated.

Notre Dame with $45,000/year scholarship.

George Washington with $30,000/year scholarship.

Boston University with a $35,000/year scholarship

Total COA for Notre Dame would about $80,000 - GW would be about $155,000 and BU would be about $105,000. Hopefully, this could change after scholarship negotiations and summer employment.

I'd be using some savings, but mostly loans to pay for school.

From a large secondary market in the Northeast, with substantial ties. I've worked in local and state politics for 6 years so I have several contacts who have offered to help with summer internships/associates and post graduation. First year associates at the bigger firms where I have ties start out at around $95k - which is pretty good considering the average salary in the area is $45k.

Interested in doing public interest litigation or some type of corporate litigation. I wouldn't rule out biglaw but I'm realistic of my chances from these schools. I'd love to do a clerkship, but again I know the limitations of these schools.

Pretty flexible on location after school. My dream locations would be Chicago, DC (some ties), or Boston - that doesn't help narrow anything down - but would be more than happy to return home or go to another secondary market. Notre Dame is very highly regarded and has a strong alumni network in my hometown.

LSAT - 167 (first try)
GPA - 3.71
Sitting out and reapplying isn't an option because of current employment ending in July and it will be tough to land a similar job for a retake year.

Thanks for the input!

[gaddockteeg]

Go to which market you want to work in. Honestly, Big law isn;t that hard to get. The doom and gloom regarding big law is wayyyy overhyped on this forum - at least in my limited experience.

I went to GW and I was outside top third. I am a current associate at a v20 in DC. Love it.

The employment stats at a school like BU or GW show something like 25% in big law/clerkship. This does sound scary but the stats include transfer students and do not take into account the top 10% or so that transfer out after 1L. Moreover, I can't tell you how many median/below-median kids get big law after 1 or 2 years after graduation. Also, pretty much every kid I know who took a school sponsored job in gov (the kind that everyone loves to bash) after grad was then hired by the agency full-time after 6 months, or went to big/mid law within 1-2 years.

If I seriously went down my 1L class's Facebook group, I would bet that 50% are now in big law or full time fed gov. gigs. And another 25% are in Mid law (10-50 lawyer firms) or state agencies or some other respectable legal job. If you want big-law, go for it. It's seriously not unrealistic at all.

Side note: the two things that absolutely DO keep you from big law is (1) being weird/autistic, (2) giving up after OCI and just not trying anymore because they think its over.

The one kid I know who wanted big law and didn;t get it was top 10% after grad but he was/is legit weird. Even professors found him annoying. Other than that, the only people not doing well in my graduating class just didn't try (cut class, partied all the time).

TLDR:
big law isn't that hard at any of those schools if (1) you just try (ie. keep your grades high after 1L, keep applying to jobs after OCI, willing to work for low pay for 1 year) and (2) are not weird.

[fliptrip]

I went to GW and I was outside top third. I am a current associate at a v20 in DC. Love it.

Quick clarification, you mean you were above median but below the top 3rd?

[cron1834]

Go to which market you want to work in. Honestly, Big law isn;t that hard to get. The doom and gloom regarding big law is wayyyy overhyped on this forum - at least in my limited experience.

I went to GW and I was outside top third. I am a current associate at a v20 in DC. Love it.

The employment stats at a school like BU or GW show something like 25% in big law/clerkship. This does sound scary but the stats include transfer students and do not take into account the top 10% or so that transfer out after 1L. Moreover, I can't tell you how many median/below-median kids get big law after 1 or 2 years after graduation. Also, pretty much every kid I know who took a school sponsored job in gov (the kind that everyone loves to bash) after grad was then hired by the agency full-time after 6 months, or went to big/mid law within 1-2 years.

If I seriously went down my 1L class's Facebook group, I would bet that 50% are now in big law or full time fed gov. gigs. And another 25% are in Mid law (10-50 lawyer firms) or state agencies or some other respectable legal job. If you want big-law, go for it. It's seriously not unrealistic at all.

Side note: the two things that absolutely DO keep you from big law is (1) being weird/autistic, (2) giving up after OCI and just not trying anymore because they think its over.

The one kid I know who wanted big law and didn;t get it was top 10% after grad but he was/is legit weird. Even professors found him annoying. Other than that, the only people not doing well in my graduating class just didn't try (cut class, partied all the time).

TLDR:
big law isn't that hard at any of those schools if (1) you just try (ie. keep your grades high after 1L, keep applying to jobs after OCI, willing to work for low pay for 1 year) and (2) are not weird.

There have been lots of hard-working, non-autistic people who didn't give up and still failed to get biglaw, including people who went to way better schools than your scamjob TTT. Your experience very definitely contradicts lots of empirical data out of GW.

OP, at a bare minimum you should immediately eliminate GW from consideration ($155k, lol), and study hard for a retake in June. I don't buy that you can't take a year off (are you older than 30? If not, that's a bunk argument), but even on your own timeline you should still do June.

[Glasseyes]

OP, did you apply anywhere else? Those numbers should have easily landed you GULC, Cornell, NU, Michigan, and Duke, possibly other T14. Source: my numbers are worse and I'm at GULC with a healthy scholly.

I don't have as much guidance for someone with your goals, but I personally wouldn't recommend any of these options when it seems like you either vastly underperformed your numbers or didn't apply widely enough. Of the three, probably ND over the others but only because GW is an overpriced bloodbath and BU is incredibly regional and probably over ranked this year. In contrast ND is one of the few schools that might be perpetually underranked in terms of its national performance (compared to schools like Minnesota, at least).

PS if you pulled a 167 on your first try, a 170+ would open up a world of choices, but more importantly you could get a pile of money from a better school. I doubt a June retake would do a whole lot for you now, but weigh that in your mind if you're even remotely open to sitting out a year.

tl;dr you can do better than these three schools

[GreatBraffsby]

OP, did you apply anywhere else? Those numbers should have easily landed you GULC, Cornell, NU, Michigan, and Duke, possibly other T14. Source: my numbers are worse and I'm at GULC with a healthy scholly.

I don't have as much guidance for someone with your goals, but I personally wouldn't recommend any of these options when it seems like you either vastly underperformed your numbers or didn't apply widely enough. Of the three, probably ND over the others but only because GW is an overpriced bloodbath and BU is incredibly regional and probably over ranked this year. In contrast ND is one of the few schools that might be perpetually underranked in terms of its national performance (compared to schools like Minnesota, at least).

PS if you pulled a 167 on your first try, a 170+ would open up a world of choices, but more importantly you could get a pile of money from a better school. I doubt a June retake would do a whole lot for you now, but weigh that in your mind if you're even remotely open to sitting out a year.

tl;dr you can do better than these three schools

I applied those schools with the same LSAT and a similar GPA and was shut out (waitlists mostly). I don't think a 167 and a GPA below 3.8 gets you t-14 "easily". I also applied late and didn't write many "Why X's", but had good work experience/softs.

Take the June LSAT for sure. It could at least get you a scholarship increase. There's no real cost aside from test fee and some LSAT review, and the potential reward is tens of thousand of dollars. That's not an investment opportunity you see every day.

With your current options, I'd take Notre Dame, especially since you think it plays well in one of your target markets. The cost of living in Boston/DC, along with lower scholarships, would drive me away from GW and BU if you need substantial loans.

[Glasseyes]

OP, did you apply anywhere else? Those numbers should have easily landed you GULC, Cornell, NU, Michigan, and Duke, possibly other T14. Source: my numbers are worse and I'm at GULC with a healthy scholly.

I don't have as much guidance for someone with your goals, but I personally wouldn't recommend any of these options when it seems like you either vastly underperformed your numbers or didn't apply widely enough. Of the three, probably ND over the others but only because GW is an overpriced bloodbath and BU is incredibly regional and probably over ranked this year. In contrast ND is one of the few schools that might be perpetually underranked in terms of its national performance (compared to schools like Minnesota, at least).

PS if you pulled a 167 on your first try, a 170+ would open up a world of choices, but more importantly you could get a pile of money from a better school. I doubt a June retake would do a whole lot for you now, but weigh that in your mind if you're even remotely open to sitting out a year.

tl;dr you can do better than these three schools

I applied those schools with the same LSAT and a similar GPA and was shut out (waitlists mostly). I don't think a 167 and a GPA below 3.8 gets you t-14 "easily". I also applied late and didn't write many "Why X's", but had good work experience/softs.

Take the June LSAT for sure. It could at least get you a scholarship increase. There's no real cost aside from test fee and some LSAT review, and the potential reward is tens of thousand of dollars. That's not an investment opportunity you see every day.

With your current options, I'd take Notre Dame, especially since you think it plays well in one of your target markets. The cost of living in Boston/DC, along with lower scholarships, would drive me away from GW and BU if you need substantial loans.

Yeah, I misspoke re: Duke and NU, but OP is basically at both medians for GULC and Cornell (and still very close for Duke and NU). If you're at both medians and not getting in, I start to wonder if the overall app could have been put together better; that's what I was getting at re: underperforming.