2017 US News Rankings - Minnesota Law Drops Forum

[MAPP]

I'm a junior in college and want to practice law in Minnesota (leaning towards big law, but there are some good mid sized firms in MN as well). UMN Law just dropped two places in the US News Rankings, and it is likely my first choice for law school. What effect will this drop have in admissions next year, if any? In other words, do you think they will raise their LSAT and GPA standards in an effort to move back up the rankings? Or does this drop potentially make it easier for me to gain admission to UMN Law next year?

[trebekismyhero]

I'm a junior in college and want to practice law in Minnesota (leaning towards big law, but there are some good mid sized firms in MN as well). UMN Law just dropped two places in the US News Rankings, and it is likely my first choice for law school. What effect will this drop have in admissions next year, if any? In other words, do you think they will raise their LSAT and GPA standards in an effort to move back up the rankings? Or does this drop potentially make it easier for me to gain admission to UMN Law next year?

Probably won't change a thing

[MAPP]

Probably won't change a thing

For what reasons? And does anyone else have a comment on this? Would be appreciated.

[kingpin101]

Because the USNews rankings are largely irrelevant. Either way, you probably shouldn't go to Minnesota.

[fliptrip]

The reason it won't change anything is because the rankings are a fiction. They don't mean anything in and of themselves and beyond that, they are a trailing indicator at best.

Minnesota is a strong state flagship law school that absolutely should be an option for anyone who wants to practice in Minnesota.

Also, schools don't have a ton of tools at their disposal to manipulate their numbers, if they were so inclined. You have some levers in significant tension here. They could get their LSAT median up, yes, but that would generally require reducing the size of their class, unless there were some dramatic reshaping of the applicant pool (be much more alarmed if you hear that the number of 170+ scorers has spiked significantly). Reducing class size = less money and you can imagine that schools aren't too eager to do that. Alternatively, schools could offer more scholarship money to snag higher scorers, but that too ultimately boils down to the school taking less money.

Medians for a school like Minnesota aren't going to move that dramatically. During peak applicant times (2011), UMN's median was 167, now during the nadir, UMN's median is 164, so it didn't move that much.

[BigZuck]

This thread addresses the issue quite well:
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=261423

Don't go to Minnesota if you want to work at a large (or midsize) law firm, the chances of getting that outcome are too remote.

[jbagelboy]

Minnesota has been overrated by the US news for a decade, and this is just a long overdue correction. Its traditional status as 18-20 has never comported with its placement numbers and power. Its a strong midwest regional school closer to Madison, U of Iowa, and U of Illinois than UCLA or Vanderbilt. I have nothing against UMN, but I'm happy that it can no longer bandy itsef about with the "T-20" label to attract clueless out-of-staters.

[yenisey]

Minnesota has been overrated by the US news for a decade, and this is just a long overdue correction. Its traditional status as 18-20 has never comported with its placement numbers and power. Its a strong midwest regional school closer to Madison, U of Iowa, and U of Illinois than UCLA or Vanderbilt. I have nothing against UMN, but I'm happy that it can no longer bandy itsef about with the "T-20" label to attract clueless out-of-staters.

Now Iowa gets into T-20. Do you think it's a similar overrated case?

[BigZuck]

Minnesota has been overrated by the US news for a decade, and this is just a long overdue correction. Its traditional status as 18-20 has never comported with its placement numbers and power. Its a strong midwest regional school closer to Madison, U of Iowa, and U of Illinois than UCLA or Vanderbilt. I have nothing against UMN, but I'm happy that it can no longer bandy itsef about with the "T-20" label to attract clueless out-of-staters.

Now Iowa gets into T-20. Do you think it's a similar overrated case?

Yes he does

[RaceJudicata]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

[Count1234]

Being at Minnesota, I can feel the strain that trying to stay a highly ranked law school is having on Minnesota. I think Minnesota will try to get itself up the ranks again, but a few years ago their lsat median dropped because they were more confident than they should have been that they could get high scorers to matriculate. I don't think they'll make that mistake again, and will just keep admissions standards the same and try to slowly work their way back up.

Since you want to practice in Minnesota, I don't think going to Minnesota at the right price is a bad choice. Personally, for big/midlaw practice in Minnesota, I think the best way to secure that is

1. Any t14
2. Minnesota
3. Other schools in the region (Wisconsin, Iowa, Mitchell Hamline, St. Thomas)

Ties are important. When I was interviewing for summer associate positions in Minnesota I was asked why Minnesota in every interview. I am a Minnesota native and the only time I spent away from Minnesota was during undergrad and I was still questioned about my Minnesota motives. You seem to have ties so you should be ok.

Sliding in the rankings by two spots won't change anything for a graduate from Minnesota who wants to practice in Minnesota. The boost you get from going to Minnesota isn't purely because of its rank. The alumni base is huge, and they really prefer their own, that's not changing. Most lawyers in the Minnesota market are from one of the three Minnesota law schools, and Minnesota still clearly outranks the competition. Minnesota's slide won't change how many t14 students you're competing against, so the preference for t14 won't be affected.

As to whether you should go to Minnesota, that's fact dependent. If you get a good scholarship (at least 75% tuition) then I don't think it's a bad choice. If you get good money from a t14, you should go there. If you don't get good money, you probably shouldn't go to law school.

[jbagelboy]

Minnesota has been overrated by the US news for a decade, and this is just a long overdue correction. Its traditional status as 18-20 has never comported with its placement numbers and power. Its a strong midwest regional school closer to Madison, U of Iowa, and U of Illinois than UCLA or Vanderbilt. I have nothing against UMN, but I'm happy that it can no longer bandy itsef about with the "T-20" label to attract clueless out-of-staters.

Now Iowa gets into T-20. Do you think it's a similar overrated case?

Yes he does

[xiao_long]

I'm a junior in college and want to practice law in Minnesota (leaning towards big law, but there are some good mid sized firms in MN as well). UMN Law just dropped two places in the US News Rankings, and it is likely my first choice for law school. What effect will this drop have in admissions next year, if any? In other words, do you think they will raise their LSAT and GPA standards in an effort to move back up the rankings? Or does this drop potentially make it easier for me to gain admission to UMN Law next year?

If you want big law, Minnesota (the school AND the state) would be a terrible choice. There simply aren't enough big law firms in town. Even mid law could be a challenge unless you secure a good class rank as the MN legal market is very delicate. Like what the others have said, it's prudent that you keep your debt level low so see if you can get scholarships from HM or UST. I think it's probably a better choice to attend HM/UST at half price than paying full price at UMN, especially since you'll no longer be able to say you went to a T-20 law school

[MAPP]

Minnesota has been overrated by the US news for a decade, and this is just a long overdue correction. Its traditional status as 18-20 has never comported with its placement numbers and power. Its a strong midwest regional school closer to Madison, U of Iowa, and U of Illinois than UCLA or Vanderbilt. I have nothing against UMN, but I'm happy that it can no longer bandy itsef about with the "T-20" label to attract clueless out-of-staters.

Let's be honest with ourselves though, high ranked schools that are not T14 are pretty regional (Texas, UCLA, USC, Boston U, Iowa, Emory). So UMN being top 20 didn't mean they could claim to not be regional. Most schools are regional, UMN just happens to dominate its region.

[BigZuck]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

This might be the pecking order for Chicago, Indiana but it's not the pecking order for Chicago, Illinois

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I'll share my perspective as an attorney who graduated from a similar state school.

The problem with schools like U of Minn, U of Iowa, U of Wisconsin, isn't the actual schools or anything about them. It is the potential misimpression that prospective applicants can get about these schools from the USNEWS Rankings. The above schools are solidly in the same tier/category as U of Hawaii, U of Tennessee, U of Oklahoma, U of Idaho, regardless of where all of these schools are "ranked." The benefit of all of these state schools is that they can set you up as well as possible for a legal career in their own respective state.

For example, U of Iowa is now #20 in USNEWS magazine, but if a prospective applicant wanted to work in neighboring Nebraska and was choosing between U of Iowa or the U of Nebraska, the correct choice is U of Nebraska. And it's not even close. The University of Nebraska is going to set the law student up for a career in Nebraska ten times better than the "top 20" school in neighboring Iowa. In fact, a U of Iowa graduate will be substantially behind the eight ball when it comes to finding a job in Nebraska. They will constantly be networking and interviewing with very proud graduates of the U of Nebraska, graduates who are will almost always give the first look to students from their alma mater. Can the Iowa grad get a job in Nebraska? Sure, maybe, with hard work, talent, luck, etc, but that isn't the right question to ask. The same Iowa grad could have had much more success in Nebraska with those same talents if they were a U of Nebraska graduate instead.

The above is an example of why educated and considered legal commenters and attorneys have such a strong dislike for USNEWS. The rankings should go from 1-15. That's it. In terms of employment outcomes, the next 150 schools are extremely similar. The differences being "where" not "what."

Another way of thinking about this is dividing law between two different client types, top earning corporate clients and everybody else. The majority of people who start off serving the first group end of serving the latter, and the vast, vast majority of law school graduates will never serve the first group at any point in their careers. If you want to serve the first client group, there are about 15 schools that give you the best chance of this, indeed a very meaningful chance. However, for everyone else, which is a group that can be fairly categorized as "nearly all lawyers," you will be serving mostly middle class people and businesses. In this gigantic field, law is entirely regional.

So the best advice for anyone considering schools like U of Minnesota is to first ask them to become certain that Minnesota is the state where they would like to live and work. For the OP and the vast, vast majority of law school applicants, it is true that USNEWS Rankings are completely irrelevant to this determination, or any other relevant determination. I strongly urge OP to ignore that magazine.

[chingwoo]

Being at Minnesota, I can feel the strain that trying to stay a highly ranked law school is having on Minnesota. I think Minnesota will try to get itself up the ranks again, but a few years ago their lsat median dropped because they were more confident than they should have been that they could get high scorers to matriculate. I don't think they'll make that mistake again, and will just keep admissions standards the same and try to slowly work their way back up.

Since you want to practice in Minnesota, I don't think going to Minnesota at the right price is a bad choice. Personally, for big/midlaw practice in Minnesota, I think the best way to secure that is

1. Any t14
2. Minnesota
3. Other schools in the region (Wisconsin, Iowa, Mitchell Hamline, St. Thomas)

Ties are important. When I was interviewing for summer associate positions in Minnesota I was asked why Minnesota in every interview. I am a Minnesota native and the only time I spent away from Minnesota was during undergrad and I was still questioned about my Minnesota motives. You seem to have ties so you should be ok.

Sliding in the rankings by two spots won't change anything for a graduate from Minnesota who wants to practice in Minnesota. The boost you get from going to Minnesota isn't purely because of its rank. The alumni base is huge, and they really prefer their own, that's not changing. Most lawyers in the Minnesota market are from one of the three Minnesota law schools, and Minnesota still clearly outranks the competition. Minnesota's slide won't change how many t14 students you're competing against, so the preference for t14 won't be affected.

As to whether you should go to Minnesota, that's fact dependent. If you get a good scholarship (at least 75% tuition) then I don't think it's a bad choice. If you get good money from a t14, you should go there. If you don't get good money, you probably shouldn't go to law school.

I'd argue that for people with ties it should be:
1. Any name-brand t20 + Notre Dame
2. Minnesota
3. Other schools in the region (Wisconsin, Iowa, Mitchell Hamline, St. Thomas)

I got much more leeway on grades coming from a different T20 than I would have had coming from U-Minnesota. MN firms get applications from all the cookie cutter LR/top 10-20% types from U-Minn/Mitchell/ST. However, if you aren't in that sector you are kind of fucked. On the flipside when you are one of like 2 people from your school that want to go to a market you are a unique commodity and can have much closer to median grades and still get interviews.

[trebekismyhero]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

This might be the pecking order for Chicago, Indiana but it's not the pecking order for Chicago, Illinois

Haha yeah. I assume they had to have meant Illinois. But for 0Ls don't pick Indiana over Illinois if you want to be in Chicago, Illinois

[RaceJudicata]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

This might be the pecking order for Chicago, Indiana but it's not the pecking order for Chicago, Illinois

Haha yeah. I assume they had to have meant Illinois. But for 0Ls don't pick Indiana over Illinois if you want to be in Chicago, Illinois

Yes, Illinois. IU can be grouped in w/ DePaul/Loyola IMO

[crumb cake]

.

[trebekismyhero]

NU/UChi will get you a job in the Twin Cities more easily than UMN.

That is probably true. But if you have a good scholarship and not necessarily wanting big law I think UMN is an excellent choice. I think it can be a decent choice if you want to be in Wisconsin or Iowa too, outside of that you really should not go to Minnesota. They have been playing the US News rankings game that they get a lot of ppl to go there that shouldn't.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

much easier to get chicago from HYS than UC/NU. Im guessing UIUC and ND place a good bit better than IU but im not sure

[WheninLaw]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

much easier to get chicago from HYS than UC/NU. Im guessing UIUC and ND place a good bit better than IU but im not sure

First sentence is wrong.

[RaceJudicata]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

much easier to get chicago from HYS than UC/NU. Im guessing UIUC and ND place a good bit better than IU but im not sure

First sentence is wrong.

Yes, strongly disagree. Look at the summer classes at Kirkland, Sidley, Winston, Jenner, etc... Loaded with those two schools. On one hand, some of that is self selection - HYS going to NYC, DC, SV. On the other, UChi/NU students have 1) established ties, 2) networking ops in city that HYS doesnt have, 3) the benefit of the big firms being loaded with alums.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Just don't go to Minnesota or Iowa expecting to practice in a place other than Minnesota or Iowa (i.e. Chicago). Chicago biglaw pecking order (and correct me if i'm wrong):

1. UChi/Northwestern
2. HYS
3. Michigan
4. Rest of T14
5. Indiana/Regionals (top students at DePaul, Loyola, etc)
6. The rest

much easier to get chicago from HYS than UC/NU. Im guessing UIUC and ND place a good bit better than IU but im not sure

First sentence is wrong.

Yes, strongly disagree. Look at the summer classes at Kirkland, Sidley, Winston, Jenner, etc... Loaded with those two schools. On one hand, some of that is self selection - HYS going to NYC, DC, SV. On the other, UChi/NU students have 1) established ties, 2) networking ops in city that HYS doesnt have, 3) the benefit of the big firms being loaded with alums.

im speaking about H although Im guessing its true at others, but at H chicago is literally the easiest market of all markets to get.