Michigan v UCLA Forum

[pmc13b]

Hello everyone,

Im a urm with a 3.6 and a 163

I'm been admitted to UCLA and Michigan, these are my only two options.

After visiting both, I am utterly unable to decide.

I want to practice public interest law (preferably in a governmental position).

I could write a long essay, but I'll boil it down. UCLA appears to be where I would enjoy attending the most, but Michigan would likely provide the best opportunities after graduation.

Any insights would be appreciated!

[pmc13b]

I've seen the forum guide and perhaps I should provide more information. I don't have ties to any particular area of the country. My immediate family is on FL and my extended family is all in New Mexico. I'd like to work in D.C., but I'd be completely satisfied with being out west (provided it be in the public interest field). Coa isn't a factor in my decision.

[WheninLaw]

Coa isn't a factor in my decision.

Why?

[pmc13b]

Because the difference between the 2 (including housing, living, and mic. expenses) comes out to be about 10k different over 3 years. I'm also committed to public interest, and they offer substanial aid at both schools for Public Interest Lawyers. Coa is just not enough of a difference to warrant consideration between the two.

[mornincounselor]

Why do you feel like you would enjoy UCLA more?

I feel like the employment numbers (especially for someone with a PI-bent) are similar enough to not be a huge concern. It's one of the top 3 non-t14 schools vs one of the 3 worst t-14 schools (imho).

[BillClinton Jr]

I would create a poll just to make things nicer. I vote Michigan. They have a great LRAP program and are really strong in public interest but without knowing scholly options it's hard to say.

[krads153]

What's your COA? LRAP is most important for PI if similar costs. I don't know anything about UCLA's LRAP so I can't comment on that.

[pmc13b]

I'm not sure how to respond individually, so I'll post a joint response.

The differences between Los Angeles and Ann Arbor are plain. However, I disagree with your assessment of the PI placement for the schools. Michigan has stronger federal placement, and stronger D.C placement (which need not necessarily go hand in hand).

I'd rather not post my budget, it its all the same to you. Like I said though, the differences are not significant enough to warrant consideration. The LRAP at UCLA is similar to Michigan, though I would give Michigan an edge.

[krads153]

If it's the same COA, then Michigan. If you ever want to do fed gov or DC, it will be easier out of Michigan (since a lot of fed gov jobs are due to people pulling strings/connections)...

[pmc13b]

I would create a poll just to make things nicer. I vote Michigan. They have a great LRAP program and are really strong in public interest but without knowing scholly options it's hard to say.

I figured out how to respond individually lol. Anyways, I appreciate your insight.

[pmc13b]

If it's the same COA, then Michigan. If you ever want to do fed gov or DC, it will be easier out of Michigan (since a lot of fed gov jobs are due to people pulling strings/connections)...

Thanks for your advice.

Do you suspect that Michigan would better provide connections than UCLA? My impression from my visits was the other way around. Their were alumni present when I visited UCLA and they were very receptive, and I did not meet any alumni at Michigan

[BillClinton Jr]

If it's the same COA, then Michigan. If you ever want to do fed gov or DC, it will be easier out of Michigan (since a lot of fed gov jobs are due to people pulling strings/connections)...

Thanks for your advice.

Do you suspect that Michigan would better provide connections than UCLA? My impression from my visits was the other way around.

Have you gotten scholly info yet or are you still waiting?

[pmc13b]

If it's the same COA, then Michigan. If you ever want to do fed gov or DC, it will be easier out of Michigan (since a lot of fed gov jobs are due to people pulling strings/connections)...

Thanks for your advice.

Do you suspect that Michigan would better provide connections than UCLA? My impression from my visits was the other way around.

Have you gotten scholly info yet or are you still waiting?

I've gotten need based info but not merit money. With my stats, I would be extremely surprised to be offered anything, especially since they both provided a good amount of need based money

[krads153]

If it's the same COA, then Michigan. If you ever want to do fed gov or DC, it will be easier out of Michigan (since a lot of fed gov jobs are due to people pulling strings/connections)...

Thanks for your advice.

Do you suspect that Michigan would better provide connections than UCLA? My impression form my visits was the other way around.

Michigan places more into fed gov percentage wise and obviously into DC....nepotism is pretty much the only way to get a fed gov job these days considering how competitive they are to get....

[pmc13b]

If it's the same COA, then Michigan. If you ever want to do fed gov or DC, it will be easier out of Michigan (since a lot of fed gov jobs are due to people pulling strings/connections)...

Thanks for your advice.

Do you suspect that Michigan would better provide connections than UCLA? My impression form my visits was the other way around.

Michigan places more into fed gov percentage wise and obviously into DC....nepotism is pretty much the only way to get a fed gov job these days considering how competitive they are to get....

Very true. My brain is saying Michigan, yet my heart says UCLA. It's appears as though the Internet supports Michigan as well.

[cron1834]

Michigan is a demonstrably better school than UCLA. Name the standard, and Mich is better, unless you're looking for SoCal employment in particular. I don't really understand why COA is irrelevant, or what on earth you want to do with your life, but Mich > UCLA in a vacuum.

[fliptrip]

Just want to be sure I am clear...you're talking about going to one of these schools at sticker price with vague goals?

The answer here is neither, unless I'm missing something.

[zot1]

UCLA.

[mornincounselor]

Well, it sounds like you have a good handle on the overall placement and location placement, so I don't have much to add there. Although I will encourage you to look at many years of data not just the most recent. Instead, I will leave you with an anecdote:


I believe the overwhelming majority of law students end up working within x miles of where they attended law school, so even if today your goals are vague and DC-centric I would ask whether you want to end up in Michigan (or NY or Chicago) vs California. I (and plenty of others will disagree on this point, I'm sure) believe one should know all the relevant data cold, but then ultimately they should follow their heart.

[fliptrip]

OP, please, do me a humanitarian service, because I am freaking out a little bit here with the advice that's being given.

What, in US currency, is your total cost of attendance going to be at both of these schools? Please give a dollar figure.

Cost of Attendance = [Tution + Fees + Estimated Living Expenses (just use the school's figure)] - Any Aid/savings/outside support

[zot1]

Are you flipping or tripping?

[fliptrip]

Are you flipping or tripping?

Both, I'm all f'd up over here...

Please, OP...give us the figures.

[zot1]

OP, for the love of God, give him the numbers!

[Glasseyes]

Yeah, just to echo some of the sheer panic others are expressing on your behalf regarding COA, you need to make sure you understand exactly what LRAP is and what it is not.

LRAP generally—and perhaps this varies somewhat by school, as I gather there are differences—makes your loan payments for you, provided you (1) earn below a certain threshold (some schools have hard income cutoffs, others are staggered and give partial loan payments if you earn above the minimum but below the maximum), and (2) you have a qualifying PI job (3) for the requisite number of years.

This sounds straightforward and wonderful on its face, but remember, if for some reason you can't land a qualifying PI job, you'll be making those payments on your own, even if you're unemployed. This is why the total amount of debt still matters. There are horror stories about kids who get a PI gig only to get laid off after a few years. If you can't land another qualifying gig within the grace period (varies by school, I gather), you may lose the ability to qualify for LRAP or loan forgiveness (PSLF) at all. In the worst possible scenario, if you're unable to stay at that qualifying job for the required amount of time (I believe) you can wind up on the hook for the payments the school already made (though again, this depends on your school's LRAP), and they'll actually make you pay them back for the full cost of the payments made on your behalf. Jobless + drowning in non-dischargeable debt = not where you want to be.

All this is a long way of saying: think long and hard before you commit to a mountain of debt. Hopefully you'll have a better outcome than what I described above, but if the economy takes a shit it won't be in your control anyway.

[fliptrip]

Let me add...for PSLF/LRAP to fully do its trick, you have to stay in for 10 full years. This is why the vagueness of your goals is alarming. PI is not paradise...it's a calling more than anything and its primary wage is the benefit of knowing you're fighting for something you believe in. Its costs can be immense. You'll be underpaid working in an organization that's underfunded, and working with populations and issues that can fry your brain and crush your heart. That's why demonstrated PI work/commitment is such an important indicator. If you've done PI stuff and survived and want to go back, then the risk is more reasonable. If you just want to go to law school to save the world, you might decide the reality of that is not for you and you'll bounce. But you'll bounce into massive debt and compromised employment prospects if you don't make a prudent choice.