Harvard vs NYU full - PI focus Forum

[texasellewoods]

Hey y'all! I've read the thread that covers H vs Vandy at NYU for people interested in big law, and TCR seems to be take the money and run. Does this still apply for PI jobs? I can't tell how much more the H name will get my in PI hiring, especially coming out of NYU. The idea of that much debt terrifies me, but should it sound as scary as it does considering I will most likely be using LRAP at H?
I also have money from Chicago, although it seems with my goals and options this is not the right choice.

COA at each school (only including tuition/fees + rent, not general living expenses like food and transportation since parents are covering those)
NYU: $60,000 debt from COL expenses
H: $217,500 debt from tuition + COL
Chicago: $102,000 debt from tuition + COL

I have an SO that will move with me and will be able to share rent expenses (that has been factored in), but he has personal reasons for strongly preferring NYC (and may have to move there anyways). We will also have some med school debt from him in a couple years (not sure how much since his parents may be helping out).
I'm KJD, so I'm very worried my lack of WE will hurt me in PI hiring. Personally interested in JJ or education policy but I expect that could change based on experiences in law school. Want to clerk.

Any help would be incredibly appreciated! I've been talking to alums from these schools and others in big law but I have virtually no PI alum connections.
Thanks!!

[krads153]

I think NYU is the right choice here - it's a no brainer to me. It has a great LRAP program too. Plus if your SO has med loans (and the average doctor won't make that much, probably only around 200k), you shouldn't both have six figure loans, especially since you're doing PI.

As for PI hiring, you don't need a ton of work experience before law school to do PI, but I will say that if you end up in biglaw at all, it might hurt your chances since they will question your dedication to PI. So for your 1L and 2L summrs, you should work at a non-profit if you're serious about PI. If you are interested at all in advocacy/litigation type non profit work in the big cities where you're helping clients directly, you will likely need a second language (e.g., Spanish/Chinese), so that's something else to consider.

My spouse is a PI attorney and does PI hiring in NYC and I'm in biglaw....if you have any more specific questions, PM me.

[kaiser]

NYU by a mile given those numbers and your goals

[texasellewoods]

I think NYU is the right choice here - it's a no brainer to me. It has a great LRAP program too. Plus if your SO has med loans (and the average doctor won't make that much, probably only around 200k), you shouldn't both have six figure loans, especially since you're doing PI.

As for PI hiring, you don't need a ton of work experience before law school to do PI, but I will say that if you end up in biglaw at all, it might hurt your chances since they will question your dedication to PI. So for your 1L and 2L summrs, you should work at a non-profit if you're serious about PI. If you are interested at all in advocacy/litigation type non profit work in the big cities where you're helping clients directly, you will likely need a second language (e.g., Spanish/Chinese), so that's something else to consider.

My spouse is a PI attorney and does PI hiring in NYC and I'm in biglaw....if you have any more specific questions, PM me.

Thank you for your response!! I really appreciate your insight
I took Spanish throughout high school and college, and I hope to continue learning in law school through cross-registration or outside programs.
Long-term I'm interested in working down South, so English and Spanish would be the most important.

[Slytherpuff]

You'll have some great PI options out of NYU, even as a K-JD! NYU for sure!

[gerard]

Sounds like NYU is perfect for you! Congrats!

[michlaw]

Harvard first hands down. If you got in go. Amazing place. Who knows if you want PI forever. You might want to teach or something else and for those options NYU doesn't carry nearly the same weight. Particularly since you have no work experience it might be harder to know for sure now what you want to do for the rest of your life.

NYU second.

Chicago second as a school but third for PI given the money difference.

[BizBro]

Harvard first hands down. If you got in go. Amazing place. Who knows if you want PI forever. You might want to teach or something else and for those options NYU doesn't carry nearly the same weight. Particularly since you have no work experience it might be harder to know for sure now what you want to do for the rest of your life.

NYU second.

Chicago second as a school but third for PI given the money difference.

OP don't listen to this BAD advice. NYU and it's not even close. Don't take out 200k+ on the off chance that you "may want to teach some day." Even people who go to HLS don't break into academia. It's literally the dumbest thing you can do, epsecially since your goals are PI.

[mt2165]

Harvard first hands down. If you got in go. Amazing place. Who knows if you want PI forever. You might want to teach or something else and for those options NYU doesn't carry nearly the same weight. Particularly since you have no work experience it might be harder to know for sure now what you want to do for the rest of your life.

NYU second.

Chicago second as a school but third for PI given the money difference.

OP don't listen to this BAD advice. NYU and it's not even close. Don't take out 200k+ on the off chance that you "may want to teach some day." Even people who go to HLS don't break into academia The vast majority of those who try to break into academia, even in HYS, fail. It's literally the dumbest thing you can do, epsecially since your goals are PI.

Also to your point, going to Harvard also lessens your opportunities in the sense that LRAP are financially limiting. If you wanted to switch to biglaw after doing PI after NYU - no financial consequences. Not sure if Harvard's LRAP forgives each year and not just the end of the payment plan - but it still doesn't remove the financial strain of debt nor remove the financial consequences of moving off of LRAP once you make more money.

[ih8makingscreennames]

Harvard first hands down. If you got in go. Amazing place. Who knows if you want PI forever. You might want to teach or something else and for those options NYU doesn't carry nearly the same weight. Particularly since you have no work experience it might be harder to know for sure now what you want to do for the rest of your life.

NYU second.

Chicago second as a school but third for PI given the money difference.

OP don't listen to this BAD advice. NYU and it's not even close. Don't take out 200k+ on the off chance that you "may want to teach some day." Even people who go to HLS don't break into academia The vast majority of those who try to break into academia, even in HYS, fail. It's literally the dumbest thing you can do, epsecially since your goals are PI.

Also to your point, going to Harvard also lessens your opportunities in the sense that LRAP are financially limiting. If you wanted to switch to biglaw after doing PI after NYU - no financial consequences. Not sure if Harvard's LRAP forgives each year and not just the end of the payment plan - but it still doesn't remove the financial strain of debt nor remove the financial consequences of moving off of LRAP once you make more money.

Can you explain this or link me to a more thorough explanation?

[mt2165]

Harvard first hands down. If you got in go. Amazing place. Who knows if you want PI forever. You might want to teach or something else and for those options NYU doesn't carry nearly the same weight. Particularly since you have no work experience it might be harder to know for sure now what you want to do for the rest of your life.

NYU second.

Chicago second as a school but third for PI given the money difference.

OP don't listen to this BAD advice. NYU and it's not even close. Don't take out 200k+ on the off chance that you "may want to teach some day." Even people who go to HLS don't break into academia The vast majority of those who try to break into academia, even in HYS, fail. It's literally the dumbest thing you can do, epsecially since your goals are PI.

Also to your point, going to Harvard also lessens your opportunities in the sense that LRAP are financially limiting. If you wanted to switch to biglaw after doing PI after NYU - no financial consequences. Not sure if Harvard's LRAP forgives each year and not just the end of the payment plan - but it still doesn't remove the financial strain of debt nor remove the financial consequences of moving off of LRAP once you make more money.

Can you explain this or link me to a more thorough explanation?

You should check out Harvard's LIPP info page, but the gist is, LRAP's only offer any aid so long as your income is within the program's limits. So after three years of going PI, if you were to go to biglaw you'd be responsible for 7 years of payments, or 70% of the original debt load. While of you went to NYU, even if you were on LRAP from just COL expenses, if you decided to go big law you'd have markedly less debt and wouldn't feel nearly as pigeonholed into staying in LRAP eligible employment for a decade just to pay off your debt.

[michlaw]

Go to admitted students weekend at Harvard. You will find a goodly number of people who were faced with your choice. Full ride somewhere or HYS. It certainly isn't a hard and fast rule but Hamilton or Ruby probably the rest maybe not. NYU has a truly truly truly loyal following which is a good thing. As far as knowing what you want to do forever only 10-15% from NYU (according to their website) go into PI so I guess the other 85-90 must be wrong or maybe its good to maximize your options.

[03152016]

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[michlaw]

"Worldwide, NYU School of Law graduates are leaders in public service, often working for organizations that they learned about or even worked for as students. NYU Law is proud to have a high percentage of its graduates pursuing full-time public service careers: Each year 10 to 15% of the graduating class chooses a public service job, and even more students do so after completing a judicial clerkship."

It is on their website. Recent graduate placement. Like I said NYU has a loyal following. Devotion is admirable even if misplaced.

[jnwa]

Go to admitted students weekend at Harvard. You will find a goodly number of people who were faced with your choice. Full ride somewhere or HYS. It certainly isn't a hard and fast rule but Hamilton or Ruby probably the rest maybe not. NYU has a truly truly truly loyal following which is a good thing. As far as knowing what you want to do forever only 10-15% from NYU (according to their website) go into PI so I guess the other 85-90 must be wrong or maybe its good to maximize your options.

Nothing maximizes options better than hundreds of thousands of dollars in law school debt.

[krads153]

Go to admitted students weekend at Harvard. You will find a goodly number of people who were faced with your choice. Full ride somewhere or HYS. It certainly isn't a hard and fast rule but Hamilton or Ruby probably the rest maybe not. NYU has a truly truly truly loyal following which is a good thing. As far as knowing what you want to do forever only 10-15% from NYU (according to their website) go into PI so I guess the other 85-90 must be wrong or maybe its good to maximize your options.

Nothing maximizes options better than hundreds of thousands of dollars in law school debt.

Average debt out of Harvard Law is $137,599 (not 300k or whatever full price is)- this amount only looks at the 77% of the class with debt.....23% of the class has NO debt whatsoever. If we include the 23% with 0 debt...then the "average" debt for the class is only $105,951.23

Law school is full of rich kids....some rich kids would pick Harvard over full scholly somewhere else, but since OP isn't in that boat, it's not even relevant what rich kids do.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+3

[03152016]

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[Tls2016]

OP:go to NYU.

[WheninLaw]

Harvard first hands down. If you got in go. Amazing place. Who knows if you want PI forever. You might want to teach or something else and for those options NYU doesn't carry nearly the same weight. Particularly since you have no work experience it might be harder to know for sure now what you want to do for the rest of your life.

NYU second.

Chicago second as a school but third for PI given the money difference.

It is very strange how some people (especially someone that didn't go there) schill for a school that has marginally better employment prospects.

[guynourmin]

"Worldwide, NYU School of Law graduates are leaders in public service, often working for organizations that they learned about or even worked for as students. NYU Law is proud to have a high percentage of its graduates pursuing full-time public service careers: Each year 10 to 15% of the graduating class chooses a public service job, and even more students do so after completing a judicial clerkship."

It is on their website. Recent graduate placement. Like I said NYU has a loyal following. Devotion is admirable even if misplaced.

hilariously wrong. you're adorable
nyu has never gone as low as 10-15%

i know the number you're referring to. pilc does a survey right after graduation to see where PI people are going. it's a nice snapshot, but it's underinclusive, since a decent number of PI people don't have jobs lined up when they walk
the 509 form, on the other hand, uses data from nine/ten months after graduation (depending on the year). it is universally accepted as the standard of job placement. in fact, it is so accepted that law school transparency relies on the 509 for its famous score reports

there isn't a single 509 that puts nyu's pi placement as low as the 10-15% range
so you must either concede that i'm right when i say that nyu has never gone as low as 10-15% pi, or explain why an informal pilc survey taken directly after graduation is right, while the aba 509, the gold standard in job placement disclosures, is wrong

509 doesn't have anything to do with employment, so there isn;t a single 509 that puts nyu's pi placement anywhere... NYU's aba req. employment disclosure for 2014 grads said 54/479 had PI jobs 9 months after graduation. http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... statistics says 12%, 12%, 15% in the last 3 years. If they do 65% law firms, 10% clerkships, 5% govt that only leaves up to 20% PI tops. Where are you getting your numbers from?

[03152016]

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[03152016]

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[fliptrip]

Let me chime in...this is NYU all the way, particularly because you have the VANDY at NYU and not the RTK. First, NYU's PI chops are unquestioned, so that shouldn't even be a concern for you.

I am of the PI world, and ex-ante PI interest without prior real experience always makes me very nervous. So, to protect your downside risk if you decide that PI isn't for you, going for free works great. You can most certainly get biglaw from NYU and it won't be a problem, and if you do decide you're going to fight the good fight, NYU will get you plugged in.

[guynourmin]

509 doesn't have anything to do with employment, so there isn;t a single 509 that puts nyu's pi placement anywhere...

OP, please ignore trolls/shills like guybourdin and michlaw
509 forms are a reliable source of employment data
509s are the gold standard on this forum and anyone trying to get you to believe otherwise does not have your best interests in mind
trolls/shills like guybourdin/michlaw can pretend they don't exist all they'd like, but it is 509 data that matters, not an informal and incomplete pilc survey conducted right after graduation
there are many places to get 509 data. i recommend law school transparency, which provides 509 data in an accurate and easy to comprehend form. nyu's law school transparency page is here: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/nyu/

trolls, please leave this thread if you have nothing constructive to contribute

I can't tell if you're being serious... are you being serious?

Here's NYU's most recent 509 report - http://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/fi ... Report.pdf - it makes NO MENTION of employment information at all. I am not pretending like these don't exist - I love these disclosures and this everyone should be as familar with them as I am. They are incredibly helpful.

Here is NYU's most recent ABA required employment disclosure - http://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/fi ... duates.pdf - which details employment info 9 months after graduation. This is NOT a 509, and this says 12% had PI jobs 9 months after graduation. ABA required employment disclosures are the "gold standard" of employment information.

[03152016]

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