Hamilton vs YLS + lots of complications Forum

[Elbble]

Hey everyone, I have kind of a weird set up - throwing it out there in case anyone has some advice.

my situation: tied to nyc b/c of spouse's job, already have a (humanities) phd, expecting a baby and will be 30 by the time i start law school
I'm old enough to know for sure I don't want biglaw; the idea is high-level policy or PI work, probably in human rights, and then likely academia.

considerations for Columbia:
1. free, obviously. (spouse works, so no COL debt either)
2. My one (lame, but it's how it is) skill in life is being a 4.0/180 kind of super student. I know a lot of people pick HYS as a hedge against mediocre performance at CCN, but that's not a real risk in my case.
3. Related to the above, I imagine being one of very few people interested in academia at Columbia might lead to useful and close relationships with professors, as opposed to being one of a hundred at YLS.
4. can stay in NYC - I know people commute to YLS, especially 2L/3L, but I don't love the idea of a commute with a kid.

considerations for Yale:
1. obvious advantage for academia
2. more scholarly environment, which is important to me (met a bunch of 23-yo future biglawers at Columbia and that's not my scene)
3. more career flexibility down the line? common wisdom I guess but wonder how true it really is.
4. it's Yale ffs. kind of a dream, don't want to regret it slipping away.

What do you guys think? Really appreciate any advice.

[deepseapartners]

If you are dead set on academia (which I suspect you actually are given your humanities PhD) and are entering law school as a way to enhance your academic hiring chances, then I would lean towards Yale even over zero debt at Columbia. It's very hard to overstate how important Yale is for future academic hiring and the high level jobs that come before that like A3 clerking, Bristow, etc.

[fliptrip]

Well...I see this as pretty clearly Yale. Are you going to qualify for any financial aid at all? I mean, if it were sticker at Yale versus Columbia for free, I might think about it, but Columbia as a school doesn't make sense ex ante for folks interested in academia. Just like Willie Sutton robbed banks because that's where the money is, folks who want to enter legal academia should go to Yale because that's where the future law professors are (by and large...).

[cron1834]

My eyes may have actually rolled into my forehead with this OP. Just pick Yale already, you're gonna do that anyway.

[baal hadad]

My eyes may have actually rolled into my forehead with this OP. Just pick Yale already, you're gonna do that anyway.

Same feeling on my end

[treeey86]

Don't listen to the kids posting. As an actual lawyer who graduated law school, with your circumstances I would advise you to pick Columbia with your spouse, baby, and be debt free (stress free).

You have a future child to raise (and those associated costs) and a spouse to maintain a relationship with (which will already be strained by you going to law school + having a child). Columbia is the realistic option. Best of luck to you and your family if you choose Yale.

[acr]

Leaning Columbia

[baal hadad]

Don't listen to the kids posting. As an actual lawyer who graduated law school, with your circumstances I would advise you to pick Columbia with your spouse, baby, and be debt free (stress free).

You have a future child to raise (and those associated costs) and a spouse to maintain a relationship with (which will already be strained by you going to law school + having a child). Columbia is the realistic option. Best of luck to you and your family if you choose Yale.

I also am an actual lawyer and c is better but he's not gonna do it he's just looking for some Yale validation

[jbagelboy]

I would never commute to new haven from new york. that's ridiculous. Columbia is not that different from Yale; making your life literally miserable for three years and plunging your family into debt is a high price to pay for the distinction in academic opportunities. I'm not surprised TLSers are saying Yale because that's what this place is like, and obviously all things equal Yale would be superior to other schools including CLS, but given all your personal factors I think CLS makes a lot more sense.

When it comes to pursuing academic fellowships at CLS, it's certainly a less well trod road than at Yale, but its done and supported amongst the faculty. If you distinguish yourself, you will have access to the top COA clerkships, from which you can jump to a number of different academic positions depending on your area of focus. The mean student at CLS will just head to NYC biglaw, but IME many students have more interesting, dynamic goals in both the public and private sector, and it would be foolish to dismiss the terrific opportunities at the school too quickly. When it comes to research, for example, professors are great about employing students and bringing them onto their projects, and by your 3L year if you stick with your fav faculty you'll definitely have opportunities to work on and be mentioned in important papers. Feel free to PM me for more specific, substantive examples and advise.

Congratulations on your incredible success!

[A. Nony Mouse]

My sense is that you are already as well-equipped as anyone to follow the academic path, and that there's a ton of self-selection going on in the Yale -> academia route. I think a lot of success in legal academia depends on what you bring to the table even before you pick a school, so your odds of success aren't going to be vastly affected by this specific choice.

(But that said it's not like I'm in a position to opine about Columbia v. Yale from any kind of personal experience.)

[gerard]

You've got two great options here. I'd say your PhD, your commitment to academia, and you're self-designation as a super-student make CLS a solid choice for academia. I think your ties to NYC make it the better choice. At the end of the day, you wouldn't be crazy to pick Yale (especially if you're really worried about regret), but I'd pick CLS.

[jbagelboy]

My sense is that you are already as well-equipped as anyone to follow the academic path, and that there's a ton of self-selection going on in the Yale -> academia route. I think a lot of success in legal academia depends on what you bring to the table even before you pick a school, so your odds of success aren't going to be vastly affected by this specific choice.

(But that said it's not like I'm in a position to opine about Columbia v. Yale from any kind of personal experience.)

This is true. The academia question isn't like the biglaw one. No schools siphons you directly into it. It's a lot more about your profile, interests, and ability to publish and contribute to academic dialogue. School certainly impacts access to some important opportunities that are instrumental in channeling these qualities, but the qualities are more important when we're comparing ultimately very similar institutions like Columbia and Yale.

[fluffythepenguin]

Your spouses' income may also count against you on repayment assistance, although I'm not personally familiar with Yale's loan repayment program. So another point in CLS' favor.

I'd lean Columbia. The idea that going to Columbia instead of Yale (not that anyone has suggested it, but I understand that to be the chief consideration) would make the difference in you having a career as an academic strikes me as unlikely, given your past academic success, PhD., and desire to pursue that path from day 1. Yale or not, there just aren't that many JD/PhDs out there.

- H/S student reasonably familiar with the academic hiring process, athough not pursuing it myself

[cron1834]

Don't listen to the kids posting. As an actual lawyer who graduated law school, with your circumstances I would advise you to pick Columbia with your spouse, baby, and be debt free (stress free).

You have a future child to raise (and those associated costs) and a spouse to maintain a relationship with (which will already be strained by you going to law school + having a child). Columbia is the realistic option. Best of luck to you and your family if you choose Yale.

As an actual lawyer, you should have more insight. OP in no way suggests wanting to be an actual lawyer.

[kaiser]

Under those circumstances, I would take the Hamilton and never look back.

[Elbble]

Thanks for your very helpful replies everyone, especially the handful of you guys making very thoughtful arguments in favor of Columbia.

My main question: Sometimes people on here talk as though there is a (very small, but existing) set of careers that are simply *not accessible*, full stop, to people outside of HYS, no matter how much they hustle or how good they are. That strikes me as a pretty wild claim, and it looks like a lot of you agree. But then I just can't understand what makes people give up Hamiltons and Rubies left and right to go to Yale, sometimes at extreme personal and financial cost. It's driving me a little crazy -- like what are they seeing that I'm not?

Anyway, thanks a lot -- also true that my husband's income (though objectively low for NYC) will basically disqualify us from loan assistance, another scary prospect.

[Paul Campos]

In your particular circumstances the differences in terms of career opportunities between CLS and YLS are negligible.

People go to YLS instead of taking full rides at CLS because:

(1) A lot of rich kids go to law school.

(2) A lot of naive kids go to law school.

[jbagelboy]

Thanks for your very helpful replies everyone, especially the handful of you guys making very thoughtful arguments in favor of Columbia.

My main question: Sometimes people on here talk as though there is a (very small, but existing) set of careers that are simply *not accessible*, full stop, to people outside of HYS, no matter how much they hustle or how good they are. That strikes me as a pretty wild claim, and it looks like a lot of you agree. But then I just can't understand what makes people give up Hamiltons and Rubies left and right to go to Yale, sometimes at extreme personal and financial cost. It's driving me a little crazy -- like what are they seeing that I'm not?

Anyway, thanks a lot -- also true that my husband's income (though objectively low for NYC) will basically disqualify us from loan assistance, another scary prospect.

It's simply not true. Yale, then Stanford and Harvard, then Chicago and Columbia ect., simply offer the same opportunities to a slightly larger slice of the class.

Most people who give up full rides for a higher ranked school do so when they 1) come from wealthy backgrounds and won't be concerned about debt, 2) don't have significant personal factors at play and accept the trade off between cost and perceived added placement, 3) receive substantial need based aid from somewhere like yls that brings the cost difference closer together, or 4) make a mistake and take on unnecessary debt that they later regret.

[fliptrip]

In your particular circumstances the differences in terms of career opportunities between CLS and YLS are negligible.

People go to YLS instead of taking full rides at CLS because:

(1) A lot of rich kids go to law school.

(2) A lot of naive kids go to law school.

Well, that closes this discussion. If an actual law professor is telling you that your chances of becoming a law professor are close enough coming from CLS or YLS, then you have to take the cheaper option and be done with it.

[mynameismyname]

A Hamilton on a resume speaks loudly enough. The fact that you want to be in NYC should clinch it. Yale is nice and all but free top 5 school in your desired market is an absolute no brainer. Columbia lawyers are just as successful as Yale lawyers in every area of law.

[jbagelboy]

To clarify, I think there are situations where taking YLS over a hamilton is totally justified. I just don't think it is here at all with your background and very specific personal circumstances and limitations.

[cron1834]

In your particular circumstances the differences in terms of career opportunities between CLS and YLS are negligible.

People go to YLS instead of taking full rides at CLS because:

(1) A lot of rich kids go to law school.

(2) A lot of naive kids go to law school.

.... and (3) a lot of people are prestige-chasers, something that's hard to grow out of.

In your experience in academia, you must have confronted a certain character type that is only happy if they can end up at a top R1 in their social science subfield. In my decade in graduate school it was very clear that a lot of people were of that sort. I'm just hunching that OP ends up at Yale.

[mynameismyname]

If I ever heard a Columbia law grad say, "If only I had gone to Yale my life would be so much better" then I would know I'm dealing with an intelligent foo! Schools can get you in the door but your work product is what gets you noticed. Just being a Yale grad doesn't guarantee anyone scotus clerkships or potus potential, it means you have the best platform to start you career. The OP will be fine going to Columbia and won't miss anything by doing so.

[Tls2016]

If you want academia go to Yale but don't commute from the city. That's way too difficult. Academic hiring in law is a highly competitive nightmare. You should go to Yale to have your best shot.

To learn more about academic hiring go to the faculty lounge blog. I would even email some of the people who run the blog. They know everything happening with academic hiring.

[fliptrip]

In your particular circumstances the differences in terms of career opportunities between CLS and YLS are negligible.

People go to YLS instead of taking full rides at CLS because:

(1) A lot of rich kids go to law school.

(2) A lot of naive kids go to law school.

.... and (3) a lot of people are prestige-chasers, something that's hard to grow out of.

In your experience in academia, you must have confronted a certain character type that is only happy if they can end up at a top R1 in their social science subfield. In my decade in graduate school it was very clear that a lot of people were of that sort. I'm just hunching that OP ends up at Yale.

I'd take the other side of that bet, cron. OP seems really open minded.