Penn vs. Michigan Forum

[slizerd]

-The schools you are considering (and scholarship at each): Penn (115k), Michigan (150k), and (kind of) Cornell (165k)
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each:

I used the Georgetown calculator with 3.5% tuition increase each year
Michigan tuition after scholarship would be $27,612.
Penn tuition after scholarship would be $85,115
Cornell tuition after scholarship would be $24,111

My SO is moving with me, and will work as a teacher if he can find a job (which is why Cornell is only kind of being considered; Ithaca prospects seem pretty barren). He is also considering grad school, if he can get a fully funded acceptance, so this would increase the amount I need to borrow. If he teaches, then I would not need to borrow for rent, but would probably take out an extra 5k/year to cover books and various personal expenses. If he doesn't teach, I would take out extra loans to help pay for rent.
So, if SO works: Michigan = ~45k, Penn = ~101k, and Cornell = ~40k
If SO doesn't, Michigan ~60k, Penn ~125k, and Cornell ~55k

I'm from the Midwest and would like to go back and work there, but working in New England/ northeast US would also be nice. Straight out of LS I want to work in biglaw for at least 3-5 years to help pay off loans and build up savings. After that, I want to do immigration law, which is my main area of focus, either working for an immigration firm/nonprofit or in government.

With these goals, is Penn worth the extra cost? and is it a mistake to not strongly consider Cornell?

[L’Étranger]

If you want to do biglaw Penn is worth it for extra 50k. Better prospects and you'll pay the extra 50k back relatively quickly.

If unsure or want PI, UM.

[mvp99]

-The schools you are considering (and scholarship at each): Penn (115k), Michigan (150k), and (kind of) Cornell (165k)
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each:

I used the Georgetown calculator with 3.5% tuition increase each year
Michigan tuition after scholarship would be $27,612.
Penn tuition after scholarship would be $85,115
Cornell tuition after scholarship would be $24,111

My SO is moving with me, and will work as a teacher if he can find a job (which is why Cornell is only kind of being considered; Ithaca prospects seem pretty barren). He is also considering grad school, if he can get a fully funded acceptance, so this would increase the amount I need to borrow. If he teaches, then I would not need to borrow for rent, but would probably take out an extra 5k/year to cover books and various personal expenses. If he doesn't teach, I would take out extra loans to help pay for rent.
So, if SO works: Michigan = ~45k, Penn = ~101k, and Cornell = ~40k
If SO doesn't, Michigan ~60k, Penn ~125k, and Cornell ~55k

I'm from the Midwest and would like to go back and work there, but working in New England/ northeast US would also be nice. Straight out of LS I want to work in biglaw for at least 3-5 years to help pay off loans and build up savings. After that, I want to do immigration law, which is my main area of focus, either working for an immigration firm/nonprofit or in government.

With these goals, is Penn worth the extra cost? and is it a mistake to not strongly consider Cornell?

I think its between C and P and that the above poster is underestimating the weight of 50k on your back once youre in big law IF u get it. C is the better option

[slizerd]

I think its between C and P and that the above poster is underestimating the weight of 50k on your back once youre in big law IF u get it. C is the better option

Thanks! I am pretty debt averse, so the extra 50k is scary. Is C still a better option than M even with wanting to do immigration in the future?

[L’Étranger]

-The schools you are considering (and scholarship at each): Penn (115k), Michigan (150k), and (kind of) Cornell (165k)
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each:

I used the Georgetown calculator with 3.5% tuition increase each year
Michigan tuition after scholarship would be $27,612.
Penn tuition after scholarship would be $85,115
Cornell tuition after scholarship would be $24,111

My SO is moving with me, and will work as a teacher if he can find a job (which is why Cornell is only kind of being considered; Ithaca prospects seem pretty barren). He is also considering grad school, if he can get a fully funded acceptance, so this would increase the amount I need to borrow. If he teaches, then I would not need to borrow for rent, but would probably take out an extra 5k/year to cover books and various personal expenses. If he doesn't teach, I would take out extra loans to help pay for rent.
So, if SO works: Michigan = ~45k, Penn = ~101k, and Cornell = ~40k
If SO doesn't, Michigan ~60k, Penn ~125k, and Cornell ~55k

I'm from the Midwest and would like to go back and work there, but working in New England/ northeast US would also be nice. Straight out of LS I want to work in biglaw for at least 3-5 years to help pay off loans and build up savings. After that, I want to do immigration law, which is my main area of focus, either working for an immigration firm/nonprofit or in government.

With these goals, is Penn worth the extra cost? and is it a mistake to not strongly consider Cornell?

I think its between C and P and that the above poster is underestimating the weight of 50k on your back once youre in big law IF u get it. C is the better option

80k total loans on a biglaw salary is actually not a huge deal. Immigration law is a different story tho.

[slizerd]

80k total loans on a biglaw salary is actually not a huge deal. Immigration law is a different story tho.

Looking into immigration law, from what I've seen the average salary is ~60k. I want to save up money for a house with SO, which is the main reason I want to do biglaw before immigration and am debt averse :/

[L’Étranger]

Very roughly speaking your chances of biglaw from M and C is ~50%.

Chances from Penn more like ~65-70%.

Up to you if not worth it.

[NUDad]

Michigan: Midwest ties, lower COL, better scholarship, much nicer place to live and go to school than Penn/Cornell.

[fliptrip]

With the amount of debt aversion that you've indicated, if you're willing to accept living back east for several years, I think your best bet is Cornell. Cornell's biglaw placement into NYC is really solid and I am sure SO can find something productive to do with the university. He could work in the academic support functions or admissions or something...be creative!

Now, if staying in the midwest is most important to you, then Michigan is clearly the bet. I don't see the marginally higher placement odds from Penn as being worth the added cost, though I encourage you to actually speak to Penn grads or visit the place yourself before you conclude that Philly and Penn are just awful places to be. SO will have no trouble finding a teaching job there...they will be begging him to come.

[mvp99]

Very roughly speaking your chances of biglaw from M and C is ~50%.

Chances from Penn more like ~65-70%.

Up to you if not worth it.

C is actually more like 65% while M is more like 45 http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cornell/

Michigan: Midwest ties, lower COL, better scholarship, much nicer place to live and go to school than Penn/Cornell.

I dont think OP needs M to have ties and biglaw in Michigan is extremely competitive.

[fliptrip]

Very roughly speaking your chances of biglaw from M and C is ~50%.

Chances from Penn more like ~65-70%.

Up to you if not worth it.

How exactly does one have only a 50% chance of snagging BigLaw at a school that placed 75% of their grads in Federal clerkships or BigLaw?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cornell/2014/

[mvp99]

also its not like you get to decide how long youll work in biglaw. Its likely you will only last 1 or 2 years.

[slizerd]

With the amount of debt aversion that you've indicated, if you're willing to accept living back east for several years, I think your best bet is Cornell. Cornell's biglaw placement into NYC is really solid and I am sure SO can find something productive to do with the university. He could work in the academic support functions or admissions or something...be creative!

Now, if staying in the midwest is most important to you, then Michigan is clearly the bet. I don't see the marginally higher placement odds from Penn as being worth the added cost, though I encourage you to actually speak to Penn grads or visit the place yourself before you conclude that Philly and Penn are just awful places to be. SO will have no trouble finding a teaching job there...they will be begging him to come.

Thanks, this is solid advice! I visited Philly and spoke to some Penn students; half of them said Penn is the best option no matter what I want to do, and the other half said Penn isn't worth the cost if I could go to another T14 for cheaper lol. I did like Philly a lot as a city though, and wouldn't mind living there. But being used to living in places like Ann Arbor, I could just as easily see myself there. I haven't yet visited Ithaca

[slizerd]

also its not like you get to decide how long youll work in biglaw. Its likely you will only last 1 or 2 years.

That's a fair point. I should've said I would ideally stay in biglaw for 3-5 years, but you're right - that's far far from a guarantee

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I think it's between Michigan and Penn. Ithaca is the worst location out of the bunch for your SO finding a job and Penn is the best out of the three for placing into biglaw anyway.

Also, imo, if you want to do government in the long term, you should aim for government, etc. straight out of law school. The competition is much harder after a few years out than through honors programs or 2L summers.

And yeah, as for another poster's advice: taking out an extra 50k in loans is more like 70k in loans after interest accruing over time, which will mean an extra 2 years or so in biglaw. It's not exactly chump change if you look at how long it will take to pay it off.

[Tls2016]

I think it's between Michigan and Penn. Ithaca is the worst location out of the bunch for your SO finding a job and Penn is the best out of the three for placing into biglaw anyway.

Also, imo, if you want to do government in the long term, you should aim for government, etc. straight out of law school. The competition is much harder after a few years out than through honors programs or 2L summers.

And yeah, as for another poster's advice: taking out an extra 50k in loans is more like 70k in loans after interest accruing over time, which will mean an extra 2 years or so in biglaw. It's not exactly chump change if you look at how long it will take to pay it off.

50k and 70k are both a lot of money. If you don't borrow it, you can spend that income on something else or save or invest it.

[Lavitz]

I was under the impression that teaching jobs weren't too difficult to get in Ithaca; that's the one job that most law students' S/Os manage to get. Also, if you own a car, Rochester and Syracuse are only an hour away if he doesn't mind commuting for a job in one of those cities. With Cornell, you'd have the low debt of the Michigan option combined with the high biglaw percentage of the Penn option.

As for getting a position in immigration law, I know our immigration law offerings are pretty good, and Penn's looks good too, but I'm not sure about Michigan. Also, it might be hard to get immigration law after spending time in biglaw. The people I know who are serious about it skipped biglaw entirely, but I admit not being an expert on this.

On the other hand, it sounds like you'd like to stay in the Midwest.

I think any of these are defensible. Obviously, you should visit Ithaca first, but this is my opinion:
If biglaw anywhere is most important, and Ithaca is too inconvenient, then Penn is probably best option.
If staying in Midwest is most important, and you wouldn't mind lower chance of biglaw, then Michigan.
If having flexibility to do either biglaw or to do immigration law sooner is most important, and SO can find job in Ithaca, then Cornell.

[Biglaw1990]

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[sanibella]

With the amount of debt aversion that you've indicated, if you're willing to accept living back east for several years, I think your best bet is Cornell. Cornell's biglaw placement into NYC is really solid and I am sure SO can find something productive to do with the university. He could work in the academic support functions or admissions or something...be creative!

Now, if staying in the midwest is most important to you, then Michigan is clearly the bet. I don't see the marginally higher placement odds from Penn as being worth the added cost, though I encourage you to actually speak to Penn grads or visit the place yourself before you conclude that Philly and Penn are just awful places to be. SO will have no trouble finding a teaching job there...they will be begging him to come.

I very respectfully disagree about the teaching market in Philly. I do completely agree about visiting Philly. I absolutely love it.

Feel free to PM me if your SO needs any assistance in regards to teaching in Philly.

[cron1834]

From talking to friends who do immigration work, I don't really think biglaw--->immigration is a thing. I also can't imagine teaching in Ithaca is an easy get, given the school district size... at least with Mich you're only a half hour away from some Detroit burbs.

Money seems to suggest Michigan here. On the other hand, if you want NYC biglaw Cornell is an obvious choice independent of the teaching market.

I guess some more clarity re: your goals is in order.

[HP5450]

You guys are just wrong if you think a Cornell degree is in any way more attractive to New York City firms than a Michigan one. It's just that practically everyone from Cornell goes to NYC, and it's by far the easiest place to get a big law job in the country.

You're chances at "getting" big law in new york from any of these schools is better than 65 percent, if you go into law school with that as your only goal. However, if you want to be in the Midwest, Michigan and less debt make a lot of sense.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Also, imo, if you want to do government in the long term, you should aim for government, etc. straight out of law school. The competition is much harder after a few years out than through honors programs or 2L summers.

I don't think this is actually true. First, 2L summer --> postgrad hire isn't anywhere as much of a thing in government as it is in firms. Second, competition for the honors program isn't easier than for lateral positions. The only real advantage of the honors programs is predictability - you know when you can apply for those, you can't guarantee when a lateral position will open up. Also, many of the honors positions are in fields not related to what the OP wants to do. And you can't look at the total number of honors positions and see that as your pool of jobs, because they're distributed throughout a bunch of different federal agencies, looking for demonstrated experience and commitment in the agency's mission, and it's hard to be a competitive candidate in all the different areas that are out there.

It's certainly worth trying for, but I don't think you can count on it (and even if you did, I don't think it would make a significant difference wrt which school to pick - there wouldn't be a major difference between the three being considered; grades and experience are going to be more important).

(Immigration is a little bit of an exception to the "not many positions"' thing in that there are a lot of honors openings with EOIR, executive office of immigration review - but the vast majority of those are clerkships with immigration judges, which can be very valuable but are for 2-year terms, in a location over which you have no control, and the person has to reapply for a much smaller pool of jobs after their term is up, if they want to try for honors again.)

Finally, I feel compelled to add that doing immigration for the government is largely about figuring out how to send immigrants back - not exclusively, but largely. Since the OP mentioned non-profits as well I just wasn't sure what kind of angle she was interested in.

[Cochran]

I think this is certainly between Michigan and Cornell. I really don't see how anyone can say that Penn is worth 35k more than Michigan or 50K more than Cornell. P and C have the propensity to give you the exact same things, biglaw on the east coast. And the only reason to take M over C is if you would be completely unhappy with the possibility of staying east. Congrats though, none of these are bad options!

[jnwa]

I know we don't have OCI success rate numbers but aren't those the numbers we should be quoting when we say someones chances of getting Biglaw out of a given school. If we assume that Mich places 45% in biglaw and Penn places 70% it amost makes sense to pay the extra money for the security. However at both schools, self selection probably plays a role so the number might be closer to 75% oci success rate for Mich vs 90 for penn in which case paying 50k extra for a cushion you probably won't need may not make sense.

[Lavitz]

I know we don't have OCI success rate numbers but aren't those the numbers we should be quoting when we say someones chances of getting Biglaw out of a given school. If we assume that Mich places 45% in biglaw and Penn places 70% it amost makes sense to pay the extra money for the security. However at both schools, self selection probably plays a role so the number might be closer to 75% oci success rate for Mich vs 90 for penn in which case paying 50k extra for a cushion you probably won't need may not make sense.

You're right. Success rate is we should be quoting. And the only mention of Michigan's percentage I've seen was by this poster claiming ">60%". They could be wrong, but that's the only number I've seen. And I can verify that Cornell in recent years has been 80%.