Should I wait a year? Forum

[dking023]

Hey everyone,

I am a 41 year old former teacher looking start a second career in law. I hold a BA and MEd in history. I just completed my masters, graduate school taught me a lot about research, writing, and collaborating. Unlike many undergraduates looking to enter law school, I have not prepped for years regarding the LSAT and other knowledge necessary to make the best decision in choosing a law school. I hope that some of you might offer some advice.

I scored 151 on the LSAT. I know, I know. My dream school is Notre Dame but a close second would be Michigan State. Given my LSAT the only schools that I've considered and might accept me would be Liberty U, Catholic U, and Valparaiso. I have talked to admission people about 1 year transfers to schools that are open to such practices. If I do well that might be a possibility.

Right now I'm leaning toward waiting a year, retaking the LSAT after months of more prep, and giving myself the possibility of entering a better school as a 1Y law student. Remember, I'm 41 already. I'm trying to balance this decision based on time and potential.

Thanks!

[Tiago Splitter]

It doesn't matter if you're 25 or 55, you can always wait a year. It's unlikely that you'll end up with quality legal employment from any of the schools that have accepted you, so you might as well wait another cycle and put yourself in a much better position going in.

[jrass]

If you currently have any assets or equity, you should consider that it's better than 50-50 you will not repay this debt during your lifetime (especially from these institutions). With the exception of a life insurance policy, whatever you are hoping to pass on to you descendants will instead go to repay your law school debt.

[fliptrip]

Hey everyone,

I am a 41 year old former teacher looking start a second career in law. I hold a BA and MEd in history. I just completed my masters, graduate school taught me a lot about research, writing, and collaborating. Unlike many undergraduates looking to enter law school, I have not prepped for years regarding the LSAT and other knowledge necessary to make the best decision in choosing a law school. I hope that some of you might offer some advice.

I scored 151 on the LSAT. I know, I know. My dream school is Notre Dame but a close second would be Michigan State. Given my LSAT the only schools that I've considered and might accept me would be Liberty U, Catholic U, and Valparaiso. I have talked to admission people about 1 year transfers to schools that are open to such practices. If I do well that might be a possibility.

Right now I'm leaning toward waiting a year, retaking the LSAT after months of more prep, and giving myself the possibility of entering a better school as a 1Y law student. Remember, I'm 41 already. I'm trying to balance this decision based on time and potential.

Thanks!

Your first step and priority is to get your LSAT up. Contrary to what you're thinking, because you're older, you have even less room for error in your law school choice as your typical 24 year old. If you choose the wrong school and end up unemployed, you will have wasted 3-5 of your highest earning potential years. The LSAT is learnable, even for us "older" folks. Notre Dame's median is 164. You'll have to get 20-25 more questions right to get there. It's time to get to work!

[Lexaholik]

Hey everyone,

I am a 41 year old former teacher looking start a second career in law. I hold a BA and MEd in history. I just completed my masters, graduate school taught me a lot about research, writing, and collaborating. Unlike many undergraduates looking to enter law school, I have not prepped for years regarding the LSAT and other knowledge necessary to make the best decision in choosing a law school. I hope that some of you might offer some advice.

I scored 151 on the LSAT. I know, I know. My dream school is Notre Dame but a close second would be Michigan State. Given my LSAT the only schools that I've considered and might accept me would be Liberty U, Catholic U, and Valparaiso. I have talked to admission people about 1 year transfers to schools that are open to such practices. If I do well that might be a possibility.

Right now I'm leaning toward waiting a year, retaking the LSAT after months of more prep, and giving myself the possibility of entering a better school as a 1Y law student. Remember, I'm 41 already. I'm trying to balance this decision based on time and potential.

Thanks!

You'll probably hear this advice a lot on this forum but studying for and retaking that LSAT is the single best thing you can do given your career goals. As a 41 year old you probably won't have the 45-50 years that a K-JD would have, but you would still have a solid 30+ years of practicing law. Giving up one year for a shot at getting into your dream schools is definitely worth it. Even if you gain just a few points on the LSAT, you'll get a huge discount on your tuition which would allow you to do a lot of really interesting things with your career.

The problem with the transfer plan is that if you don't get in, you will be between a rock and a hard place. Transferring is a good secondary option, but it should never be your primary option.

[GreatBraffsby]

I'm not sure of your financial state, but I would definitely recommend enrolling in some kind of LSAT course or taking time off of work to study. After not prepping "for years", you really do need to give the test your best shot. Whether that means creating your own study plan with this site as a resource, or finding a tutoring program, depends on how you learn. You should study between 20/40 hours per week while taking practice tests under actual conditions. Even if you spend a lot of your savings to do this, it could mean 50-100k in scholarship money and a degree with a much higher return on investment.

If you have success raising your practice scores, then apply to law school once you feel you've maxed out your score. If not, I really would recommend staying away from the schools you mentioned. Your age gives you the benefit of perspective on your career and something unique on your resume, but it also means you need to make this second move count. Going into debt for a suboptimal JD could wreck your financial future.

Definitely take the time to learn the test. A 151 cold score isn't terrible and you can definitely jump 10-20 points by next September if you commit yourself to the process.

[dannyswo]

I'll be 41 in April, and going to law school in 2017 at age 42. I studied for a month before taking the LSAT and got a score I could live with. I'd recommend you consider your priorities. If you're in a job you hate now, are you going to hate the next year of your life? Are you geographically constrained? If you are confident that you'll do well in law school, would you benefit from doing really well at a lower tier school and standing out?

You can always apply and see how much credit your work experience is worth. If you don't get an offer you like, wait for a year.

[Joscellin]

Hey everyone,

I am a 41 year old former teacher looking start a second career in law. I hold a BA and MEd in history. I just completed my masters, graduate school taught me a lot about research, writing, and collaborating. Unlike many undergraduates looking to enter law school, I have not prepped for years regarding the LSAT and other knowledge necessary to make the best decision in choosing a law school. I hope that some of you might offer some advice.

I scored 151 on the LSAT. I know, I know. My dream school is Notre Dame but a close second would be Michigan State. Given my LSAT the only schools that I've considered and might accept me would be Liberty U, Catholic U, and Valparaiso. I have talked to admission people about 1 year transfers to schools that are open to such practices. If I do well that might be a possibility.

Right now I'm leaning toward waiting a year, retaking the LSAT after months of more prep, and giving myself the possibility of entering a better school as a 1Y law student. Remember, I'm 41 already. I'm trying to balance this decision based on time and potential.

Thanks!

Your instincts here are correct, listen to them. Study up and retake that LSAT. You can probably raise that score into the 160s without too much trouble, and with proper prep start pushing into 170s. The LSAT forum here has a lot of good material and advice, but I would emphasize that I would aim for at least 10 practice tests before the actual.

You're actually in a good window right now, as you can take the June administration and have your score ready at the beginning of the admission cycle, with an option to retake in October if you feel like another chance would behoove you.

I can't imagine a situation in which going to any of the three schools you mentioned would be a good decision. Follow your dream, study, retake, and aim for ND. With enough of a bump, you could land a substantial scholly there, or potentially even better options.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Depends on what OP's priorities are, but definitely forget expensive and stingy Notre Dame entirely. MSU gives full rides to pretty much anyone in their stated criteria of 3.7/157, well within OP's range. That's perfectly fine assuming OP is fine with working at a small firm in Michigan. There are a couple other options that presumably offer a little more job security for free, but I'm assuming there's some reason for wanting to go to MSU.

[BigZuck]

I'll be 41 in April, and going to law school in 2017 at age 42. I studied for a month before taking the LSAT and got a score I could live with. I'd recommend you consider your priorities. If you're in a job you hate now, are you going to hate the next year of your life? Are you geographically constrained? If you are confident that you'll do well in law school, would you benefit from doing really well at a lower tier school and standing out?

You can always apply and see how much credit your work experience is worth. If you don't get an offer you like, wait for a year.

So you've never gone to law school, yet you think that someone can will themselves to good grades?

[totesTheGoat]

I am a 41 year old former teacher looking start a second career in law. I hold a BA and MEd in history. I just completed my masters, graduate school taught me a lot about research, writing, and collaborating. Unlike many undergraduates looking to enter law school, I have not prepped for years regarding the LSAT and other knowledge necessary to make the best decision in choosing a law school. I hope that some of you might offer some advice.

Am I understanding you correctly that you taught for a while, just finished 1.5-2 years in grad school, decided teaching is not for you, and have decided to give law school a shot? What are your expectations for a law degree? Do you have salary expectations? Do you plan on ever retiring? Do you have student loans from your masters degree? Are you going to be able to handle another $150k in student loans if you end up making $50k out of law school?

Give us a bit of a picture of why you think law school is a good idea for you so that we can tailor our responses to that. Currently, your post reads like law school and a career change is just a mid-life crisis, which is an objectively awful reason to go to law school.

I scored 151 on the LSAT. I know, I know. My dream school is Notre Dame but a close second would be Michigan State. Given my LSAT the only schools that I've considered and might accept me would be Liberty U, Catholic U, and Valparaiso. I have talked to admission people about 1 year transfers to schools that are open to such practices. If I do well that might be a possibility.

Take transferring off the table for now. If you can't get into a school that you would be happy to graduate from, don't go to law school. I will say that, without looking at your entire admissions package, going to any school that will accept you with a 151 LSAT is a really bad idea.

Right now I'm leaning toward waiting a year, retaking the LSAT after months of more prep, and giving myself the possibility of entering a better school as a 1Y law student. Remember, I'm 41 already. I'm trying to balance this decision based on time and potential.

I think it's important that you do more research to make sure that law school is a good idea. If you screw this up, decide law isn't for you, graduate at the wrong time, or even just get unlucky, you will spend the rest of your life digging yourself out of a mountain of student loan debt with a plastic spoon. It's not like you're giving up a $20k/year barista job at age 23 to go to law school. You have decent earning capacity that you're giving up in order to pursue this. It would be really unfortunate if you dove in headfirst and found out that the pool was empty.

[ja7810]

I'll be 41 in April, and going to law school in 2017 at age 42. I studied for a month before taking the LSAT and got a score I could live with. I'd recommend you consider your priorities. If you're in a job you hate now, are you going to hate the next year of your life? Are you geographically constrained? If you are confident that you'll do well in law school, would you benefit from doing really well at a lower tier school and standing out?

You can always apply and see how much credit your work experience is worth. If you don't get an offer you like, wait for a year.

So you've never gone to law school, yet you think that someone can will themselves to good grades?

classic shitty BigZuck post. I haven't gone to law school either. Hope this helps!

[BigZuck]

I'll be 41 in April, and going to law school in 2017 at age 42. I studied for a month before taking the LSAT and got a score I could live with. I'd recommend you consider your priorities. If you're in a job you hate now, are you going to hate the next year of your life? Are you geographically constrained? If you are confident that you'll do well in law school, would you benefit from doing really well at a lower tier school and standing out?

You can always apply and see how much credit your work experience is worth. If you don't get an offer you like, wait for a year.

So you've never gone to law school, yet you think that someone can will themselves to good grades?

classic shitty BigZuck post. I haven't gone to law school either. Hope this helps!

Ok

Danny- Telling people they can go to bad law schools and then will their way to victory is bad advice

[dannyswo]

I'll be 41 in April, and going to law school in 2017 at age 42. I studied for a month before taking the LSAT and got a score I could live with. I'd recommend you consider your priorities. If you're in a job you hate now, are you going to hate the next year of your life? Are you geographically constrained? If you are confident that you'll do well in law school, would you benefit from doing really well at a lower tier school and standing out?

You can always apply and see how much credit your work experience is worth. If you don't get an offer you like, wait for a year.

So you've never gone to law school, yet you think that someone can will themselves to good grades?

classic shitty BigZuck post. I haven't gone to law school either. Hope this helps!

Ok

Danny- Telling people they can go to bad law schools and then will their way to victory is bad advice

Didn't realize that this was a forum only for people who have completed law school. I appreciate that post-law school you're kind enough to lend your expertise to the discussion. But you misinterpreted my post. OP can consider my idea and take it or leave it. But I'll expand on the idea.

Not everyone can to go to a top ten school, the parking would be a nightmare. The situation for someone at age 41 is going to have a lot of factors that may not apply to the majority of others. It's fairly easy to move when you're 25, less so when you're 40. I've never moved to go to law school, as BigZuck would point out, but I have moved 13 times in the last 19 years. If you have kids, it's not awful when they're young, but it's tough when they are teenagers. If you're moving and your family/significant other is staying behind it's a hassle. Travel time and time apart are tough on people. You may increase your chance at employment, but you could also increase your chance of a divorce.

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a great essay on the advantages of being a big fish in a small pond in David and Goliath. It's pop-psychology, but it's worth considering. You can check out this article for a summary. http://news.bitofnews.com/malcom-gladwe ... mall-pond/ I encourage the OP to weigh his own values.

[Tls2016]

The point is that no one can count on good grades. Law school has a mandatory curve that means the number of A's per class are set before the class even starts. Yet most everyone feels they will be getting them.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'll be 41 in April, and going to law school in 2017 at age 42. I studied for a month before taking the LSAT and got a score I could live with. I'd recommend you consider your priorities. If you're in a job you hate now, are you going to hate the next year of your life? Are you geographically constrained? If you are confident that you'll do well in law school, would you benefit from doing really well at a lower tier school and standing out?

You can always apply and see how much credit your work experience is worth. If you don't get an offer you like, wait for a year.

So you've never gone to law school, yet you think that someone can will themselves to good grades?

classic shitty BigZuck post. I haven't gone to law school either. Hope this helps!

Unless you're alting, you didn't even give any advice here that was being criticized, so I don't understand how this comment was at all helpful or relevant.

Zuck is right that people who haven't been through law schools grades have a hard time appreciating how they work. There's a certain advantage to being at the top, even of a lower-ranked school, but the further down the rankings you go, the closer to the top you need to be to have the best opportunities, and you simply can't assume you're going to be at the top, regardless of where you go.

There are certainly situations in which going to MSU or the like is fine for a person's goals. But I don't think going to MSU because you believe you'll be at the top there is the way to go, because you have so little control over your grades.

[totesTheGoat]

Not everyone can to go to a top ten school, the parking would be a nightmare.

I certainly don't go to a top ten school, and parking is still a nightmare.

The situation for someone at age 41 is going to have a lot of factors that may not apply to the majority of others.

Right! Which is why many of us are really flipping skeptical. Law school can haunt a 25 year old for decades. Imagine how much more a 41 year old's life can be screwed up considering that they have a limited earning longevity, they're taking 3 years off in their prime earning years, they likely have a family, and every law firm is wondering whether it's worth hiring a 45 year old first-year associate.

It's fairly easy to move when you're 25, less so when you're 40. I've never moved to go to law school, as BigZuck would point out, but I have moved 13 times in the last 19 years. If you have kids, it's not awful when they're young, but it's tough when they are teenagers. If you're moving and your family/significant other is staying behind it's a hassle. Travel time and time apart are tough on people. You may increase your chance at employment, but you could also increase your chance of a divorce.

Yes, which is why the question should be whether or not OP goes to law school, not whether he should wait a year. Unless there's some compelling reason for him to get a JD, he's going to turn his and his family's lives upside down for 3 years in order to have a 50% chance of getting a legal job and a 10% chance of getting a job making over $60k (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/msu/sals/2014/).

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a great essay on the advantages of being a big fish in a small pond in David and Goliath. It's pop-psychology, but it's worth considering. You can check out this article for a summary. http://news.bitofnews.com/malcom-gladwe ... mall-pond/ I encourage the OP to weigh his own values.

I see Malcolm Gladwell as the Joel Osteen of sociology. Setting my preexisting prejudice aside, law school grading is waaaaaaay too subjective to say with any certainty that you're going to be the "big fish." I always give the advice that you should plan your law school around graduating at median, because you really don't have a ton of control over your class rank. You can't work your way to an A. You can't will your way to top 10%.

[BigZuck]

Danny- I think you're way off the mark when it comes to your assessment of the pool of posters on TLS. There are multiple old people posting ITT. There are plenty of people on this board who have lived in LA (referring to the other thread you got some pushback in). I know you think you are but you're not exactly providing a perspective that other people on this board don't have.

By all means contribute but if you're going to pull stuff out of thin air based on what you think law school is like then that's dangerous

[dannyswo]

Danny- I think you're way off the mark when it comes to your assessment of the pool of posters on TLS. There are multiple old people posting ITT. There are plenty of people on this board who have lived in LA (referring to the other thread you got some pushback in). I know you think you are but you're not exactly providing a perspective that other people on this board don't have.

By all means contribute but if you're going to pull stuff out of thin air based on what you think law school is like then that's dangerous

I wasn't commenting based on what I think Law School is, I was commenting based on what a particular city is like, and what making a decision when you're 40 is like.

[Danny Mothers]

Even if you're set on a not-top school because of life factors, you still owe it to yourself (for those same limiting reasons, be it family or age or whatever) to pay as little as possible to go to that school. Good LSATs help everyone. Even those who can't or won't go to a T14.

Also, why would you think you can do very well, even at a bad school, if you can't will yourself to a good LSAT score as well? You can give all the excuses you want (didn't put in the time etc) but I suspect you'll end up saying them again after mediocre 1L grades. I promise you that the LSAT is far easier than school itself, so what about a bad score makes you think you'll suddenly turn it around?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Danny- I think you're way off the mark when it comes to your assessment of the pool of posters on TLS. There are multiple old people posting ITT. There are plenty of people on this board who have lived in LA (referring to the other thread you got some pushback in). I know you think you are but you're not exactly providing a perspective that other people on this board don't have.

By all means contribute but if you're going to pull stuff out of thin air based on what you think law school is like then that's dangerous

I wasn't commenting based on what I think Law School is, I was commenting based on what a particular city is like, and what making a decision when you're 40 is like.

I don't think picking a lower-ranked school because you're confident you can stand out there is a wise move regardless of your age.

[zot1]

If you look through my posts you'll find that I'm not a fan of retaking. However, in your specific situation, I would definitely recommend it.

My biggest fear for you isn't what school you go to, to be honest. My biggest fear is that given your age, score and the schools you might be going to, you might be one of those grads who struggles with the bar. And if you can't pass the bar, you can't be an attorney.

So my recommendation is to actually study for the LSAT, invest the 1,000 dollars for a prep course, and then apply to at least top 100 schools (or maybe just top 75).

Good luck!

[zot1]

For the person saying not everyone can go to a top school:

That may be true. However, feeding the TTTs is problematic because it is that kind of mentality that keeps them operating.

Did you know TTTs purposely fail a good chunk of the first class? They do this to take scholarships away. Did you know they prepare you poorly for the bar exam? No bar, no practice. Did you know that they mislead people re job prospects? In fact, a lot of places don't want to hire TTT grads. But really, there are so many lawsuits about this already...

I'm all for everyone who wants to be a lawyer should be a lawyer (I got myself into A LOT of debt to do it), but you should do it in a way that at least sets you up for success, not imminent failure.