Emory v gulc Forum

[Puppylove]

Emory- just shy of full scholly
Gulc- considerably less...
Can I use Emory to negotiate with gulc?
Interested in Big Law, like both cities....
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[Hikikomorist]

No mention of WUSTL makes me think you should retake.

[Puppylove]

... Why?

I am not too interested in wustl because of personal fit...

[Hikikomorist]

... Why?

I am not too interested in wustl because of personal fit...

If you have a high LSAT score, WUSTL is a good application to submit, even if only for the financial aid offer you're almost guaranteed to get. If you don't have a high LSAT score, you should retake for better biglaw chances.

[fliptrip]

will GULC respond to a Emory offer? I doubt it. GULC didn't respond to a full scholarship offer from Cornell and UT that I have had before.

Do you hate NYC? I'm surprised Cornell isn't in your options. Did you apply?

Aside from that, I don't think Emory is a bad bet at all at almost full scholarship as long as you know up front that you're going to be in Atlanta and that you won't have a good shot at biglaw.

I wouldn't do GULC for anything less than a half scholarship.

But, again Cornell for 75% off is a dramatically better option than both, I'd say.

[Puppylove]

I did apply there... I am still waiting on several t14/t20s. I asked about these two because at this point these are the options that I am considering seriously as an all around good fit.

[Puppylove]

I do not want to live in Ithaca. My so would also have a difficulty finding a job there. I am more interested in bigger cities...and I am over NYC. Have family in the city, recently visited and confirmed that I do not want to live there.

I am very okay with Atlanta... Do know several people who have gotten big law from there, although of course I would be going into it thinking of staying in Atlanta....

[fliptrip]

Alrighty...as I said, I think Emory is very defensible. Just want to caution you to proceed from objective data moreso than anecdotes. If you end up at median at Emory, I think you definitely get a job, but I don't see biglaw happening. I don't doubt that you know plenty of folks who got biglaw out of Emory, but did you ask about their grades and prior connections?

[Puppylove]

Alrighty...as I said, I think Emory is very defensible. Just want to caution you to proceed from objective data moreso than anecdotes. If you end up at median at Emory, I think you definitely get a job, but I don't see biglaw happening. I don't doubt that you know plenty of folks who got biglaw out of Emory, but did you ask about their grades and prior connections?

Yes, they were in the top percents... I am not going into law school magically thinking I will be there as well ( although my LSAT would dictate that I should) I am preparing to work extremely hard.

I am also debt averse and don't know if a t14 ( one higher than gulc) is worth it at sticker or near sticker....

[Tls2016]

Alrighty...as I said, I think Emory is very defensible. Just want to caution you to proceed from objective data moreso than anecdotes. If you end up at median at Emory, I think you definitely get a job, but I don't see biglaw happening. I don't doubt that you know plenty of folks who got biglaw out of Emory, but did you ask about their grades and prior connections?

Yes, they were in the top percents... I am not going into law school magically thinking I will be there as well ( although my LSAT would dictate that I should) I am preparing to work extremely hard.

I am also debt averse and don't know if a t14 ( one higher than gulc) is worth it at sticker or near sticker....

If you are happy not at biglaw that is fine. Just understand that law school grades on a curve so the work you put in does not always equal grades. There is a set number of As in a class. You should be sure to read the guides to doing well in law school here.

All I know of Atlanta is that it is a small and competitive market and seems to be extremely ties sensitive. Also I think most of the biglaw hiring is done in 1L summer and if they like you they ask you back the next summer,it's a weird system so be sure to understand it. I could have it wrong as I'm relying on memory from 3 or more years ago.

[fliptrip]

No law school is worth it at sticker, not even Yale. Well, maybe Yale.

You seem like you have your head on straight, but careful about assuming too much about your LSAT with respect to your grades. Unless you're attending Emory with like a 175, you're going to be in the same neighborhood as the vast majority of your classmates, so pretty much anything can happen grade wise. It almost seems random.

[Puppylove]

Alrighty...as I said, I think Emory is very defensible. Just want to caution you to proceed from objective data moreso than anecdotes. If you end up at median at Emory, I think you definitely get a job, but I don't see biglaw happening. I don't doubt that you know plenty of folks who got biglaw out of Emory, but did you ask about their grades and prior connections?

Yes, they were in the top percents... I am not going into law school magically thinking I will be there as well ( although my LSAT would dictate that I should) I am preparing to work extremely hard.

I am also debt averse and don't know if a t14 ( one higher than gulc) is worth it at sticker or near sticker....

If you are happy not at biglaw that is fine. Just understand that law school grades on a curve so the work you put in does not always equal grades. There is a set number of As in a class. You should be sure to read the guides to doing well in law school here.

All I know of Atlanta is that it is a small and competitive market and seems to be extremely ties sensitive. Also I think most of the biglaw hiring is done in 1L summer and if they like you they ask you back the next summer,it's a weird system so be sure to understand it. I could have it wrong as I'm relying on memory from 3 or more years ago.

Thank you very much for this. Just to clarify- the overwhelming consensus in tls is that Emory= no chance at big law?

[Puppylove]

No law school is worth it at sticker, not even Yale. Well, maybe Yale.

You seem like you have your head on straight, but careful about assuming too much about your LSAT with respect to your grades. Unless you're attending Emory with like a 175, you're going to be in the same neighborhood as the vast majority of your classmates, so pretty much anything can happen grade wise. It almost seems random.

Unfortunately I do not have a 175, although now I am kind of happy about that.. Yp is just awful. At this point I am just willing to study and work harder than ever to get good grades, I know grades are everything in law school.

I guess I am getting a little tied up in the rankings game and think about certain t14 s that I would take on debt for... I guess that is less than smart... And I have not started negotiating with Emory or any other schools because I am still waiting on a few...

[fliptrip]

No...it's not a zero proposition. It's just not a good bet. The best way to think about outcomes is to assume you will be at or around median. At Emory, if you end up at median, you're likely to miss out on biglaw because only 26% of their class gets biglaw. If you end up in the top 10% or even top quarter, I would not be surprised to see you with a snazzy associate position at Alston & Bird or King & Spalding.

At Cornell, which I know you despise, just a shade under 75% of their class gets biglaw or a Fed Clerkship (which often leads to biglaw). So ending up at median there still sets you up quite well. You could even be close to mediocre there and end up alright.

[Puppylove]

No...it's not a zero proposition. It's just not a good bet. The best way to think about outcomes is to assume you will be at or around median. At Emory, if you end up at median, you're likely to miss out on biglaw because only 26% of their class gets biglaw. If you end up in the top 10% or even top quarter, I would not be surprised to see you with a snazzy associate position at Alston & Bird or King & Spalding.

At Cornell, which I know you despise, just a shade under 75% of their class gets biglaw or a Fed Clerkship (which often leads to biglaw). So ending up at median there still sets you up quite well. You could even be close to mediocre there and end up alright.

Lol was my love for cornell so obvious? I really value personal fit and know from personal experience the difference it can make in academics.

Thanks for the realistic expectations... Although I hate that it seems as if you don't have so much control over your grades and where you fall in the class!

[WinterComing]

Unless you're attending Emory with like a 175, you're going to be in the same neighborhood as the vast majority of your classmates, so pretty much anything can happen grade wise. It almost seems random.

Just so the OP has context, you haven't yet been to law school, right Flip Trip? What is the basis for your analysis that grades "almost seem random"?

ETA: From what I've read here, I'd guess you're absolutely right. I just think it's important to be transparent about whether your statements are based on experience or are just echoing the advice of others on these boards.

[fliptrip]

^^no, I haven't been to law school, but I have read LSAC's LSAT predictive validity studies and consumed other materials related to the predictive validity of the LSAT. Because I've done this, I know that the LSAT explains only 36% of the variance in 1L grades across all LSAT takers enrolled in 1L in 2012 (the most recent year of the study). The range is 19% to 55%. I also know that within narrow bands of LSAT scores, like what one would expect to find at a selective law school like Emory, the correlation between LSAT and 1L GPA pushes to the lower range. This is why I mentioned 175 as a major outlier for a school like Emory. If OP had a 175, then he might have reason to believe that his LSAT on its face would predict great success grade-wise at Emory. If OP is coming in at Emory's median (165), he should not expect the fact that he has a 92%ile LSAT to translate to increased odds of good grades in school. To go further, since Emory's interquartile range is 166-156, he can take some solace that he will not likely have disastrous grades because he's nearly at the top of a wide IQR. But, at Emory he will need better than non-disaster grades to achieve BigLaw (TLS conventional wisdom).

Thanks for the reminder. OP, allow me to add this disclaimer. I have never been to law school so I cannot offer you what would be the epitome of anecdotal evidence to back up what I wrote to you earlier. But, I have studied this topic to a greater extent than the typical poster here so I feel confidence in what I told you. Further, you'll notice that in our very active community, what I wrote has not been contradicted or challenged, so from a wisdom of crowds perspective, I guess that counts as some validation. Finally, I feel compelled to remind you that I am a random internet stranger who you will very likely never meet in life, so don't forget to weigh that in the balance.

Are you satisfied now Winter?

[TLSModBot]

This seems to come up a lot so I'll do a quick aside here why a number of TLS'ers (myself included) recommend assuming you'll be median at your school when assessing law schools for future employment outcomes (and judging schools accordingly):

Grades aren't completely random but there is a limitation beyond your control which makes it almost the same for many people. You can guarantee with hard work and "smart" studying strategies (the meaning of that word differs for different people/learning styles) that you'll get over a B vs. under a B. Whether you cop the A/A-/B+, however, can be subject to forces beyond your control, such as the relative ability of your peers and whether the professor just likes a particular response better than a different one that is virtually similar. Forced curve means knowing the answer isn't enough. And the difference in hiring outcomes between an A- average and a B+ average can be pretty fucking huge. So when many people say "random," it's shorthand for all this uncontrollable/unknowable/unfixable shit that means you're not ever able to 100% guess what your grades will be at a given school - but chances are good you'll be at or around median.

[WinterComing]

Are you satisfied now Winter?

Maybe I deserved that. Maybe I didn't. I certainly wasn't trying to start a thing.

I think most people who post in this particular forum are seeking the wisdom of practicing lawyers. Because we are all anonymous strangers, it can be difficult for OPs to differentiate between lawyers and soon-to-be law students. So if they want to give more weight to advice from one group or the other, they aren't necessarily able to do that. Certainly, I'm not the first person to suggest in this forum that people who have already attended a law school are the best ones to give advice about choosing one.

Generally speaking, I think that 0Ls who don't know what they're talking about (and I'm happy to include myself in that category) screw up threads in this forum. Obviously, as you've proved in this thread and many others, you are a 0L who absolutely does know what you're talking about and routinely gives excellent advice. So I suppose you're an exception and I apologize for giving you a hard time.

[fliptrip]

^^ I apologize Winter. There's nothing at all wrong with asking someone to support/explain themselves, especially when they have the audacity to advise people on big time life decisions.

Now that I'm over myself, if I do post in the choosing thread, I'll be sure to identify myself as a 0L.