Howard University Law BigLaw Placement Forum

[wjlaw]

Whats the deal with this school's low ranking (135 on US News, 1 star on law-schools.com), yet good job placement? 24 out 112 of its students last year placed within firms that compromise 250 of the largest firms in the state (placing it ahead of WUSTL, GW, and Emory surprisingly, especially for an HBCU). However, Howard University law is ranked outside the top 100 US News (which I know has questionable metrics, but still), and tends to get overlooked most other places.

Even more surprisingly, its LSAT range is 148-153, and only half of its graduates are even employed out of those who reported. Whats going on here?

http://tippingthescales.com/2015/02/the ... w-schools/

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/howard/2014/

[Tiago Splitter]

Law firms want to be able to show they are hiring diverse classes, and it's easier to check the African-American box by going to a school where just about everyone is black rather than competing with lots of other firms for a small number of black students at the typical biglaw feeder schools.

[wjlaw]

Law firms want to be able to show they are hiring diverse classes, and it's easier to check the African-American box by going to a school where just about everyone is black rather than competing with lots of other firms for a small number of black students at the typical biglaw feeder schools.

So URM boosts even apply to job placement? Is there any proof or supporting information for this?

I'm thinking for surely, there are probably a couple dozen other law schools where the students have LSAT scores placing better that the 148-153 range, and they certainly have URM's looking for jobs, why not shop at any of those?

[Tiago Splitter]

Law firms want to be able to show they are hiring diverse classes, and it's easier to check the African-American box by going to a school where just about everyone is black rather than competing with lots of other firms for a small number of black students at the typical biglaw feeder schools.

So URM boosts even apply to job placement? Is there any proof or supporting information for this?

Yes I have proof. Here it is:

24 out 112 of [Howard's] students last year placed within firms that compromise 250 of the largest firms

But seriously firms make a major effort to recruit diverse candidates. It's no surprise that a school full of them places better than you'd otherwise expect.

[wjlaw]

Law firms want to be able to show they are hiring diverse classes, and it's easier to check the African-American box by going to a school where just about everyone is black rather than competing with lots of other firms for a small number of black students at the typical biglaw feeder schools.

So URM boosts even apply to job placement? Is there any proof or supporting information for this?

Yes I have proof. Here it is:

24 out 112 of [Howard's] students last year placed within firms that compromise 250 of the largest firms

But seriously firms make a major effort to recruit diverse candidates. It's no surprise that a school full of them places better than you'd otherwise expect.

Alright I walked into that one, haha. I meant like scholarly reports, or even statements from execs, though.

[eagle2a]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class and get minorities from there

[Tiago Splitter]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

[psu2016]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

[wjlaw]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

[sublime]

..

[Tiago Splitter]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

I doubt the admissions statistics of black students at those other schools are much different than they are at Howard.

And yes, there is a boost at other schools, but you're always fighting an uphill battle if the firm doesn't come to OCI.

[psu2016]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

I'm not sure that you can go to a school and say, "give me all your URM students, we don't want to talk to the white kids" I feel like there may be laws about that sort of thing.

[wjlaw]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

I'm not sure that you can go to a school and say, "give me all your URM students, we don't want to talk to the white kids" I feel like there may be laws about that sort of thing.

Yeah, well affirmative action, or admitting students based on "diversity" is blatantly discrimination, for whatever reason, and there are certainly laws against that, but that is a different discussion.

The fact is though, you don't basically have to walk in and say "we only want black students, no white applicants". If a firm sends a notice to a school's stating they are seeking to improve their diversity, I'm certain the school would have no issue, and more than likely would get applauded for, making such a thing happen by setting up a special networking session or OCI, and there are plenty of respectable schools a reasonable distance from DC. I remember at my school they were services established just for minority or disadvantaged students, and everyone knows about URM boosts.

Regardless, I feel like that answer here relating to diversity make sense (especially in light of the top quarter= 30 students comment), but I feel like there may still be something more here. But maybe not.

[fliptrip]

#1, it cannot be overstated how few black students actually are attending t-14 schools. The t-14 only awarded 273 JDs to black students in 2015. By my quick research (and please someone correct me if I am way off), law firms with more than 100 attorneys hired 4,135 summer associates last summer. Even if every single black student in the t-14 wanted a biglaw SA (and I don't think they do), that would only be 6.6%, which isn't exactly a lot. Also, when you consider that according to mylsn (apply all caveats), a school like Cornell's median AA admit LSAT is 162 (and that's of admits, we don't know what the actual matriculant LSAT median is, but we can assume its lower, like 160 seems reasonable).

If I'm hiring for diversity, as Tiago and others have said, it makes a ton of sense to go to Howard, where they have 30 kids with an LSAT of at least 155 (HU's 75th%ile). I could feel comfortable that they are similar in ways to the Cornell black applicants and they are all in one place. Also, and this is very important, you might have a higher success rate with HU students who have spent law school in an environment that is open, warm, affirming, and hospitable versus a black applicant from the T-14 who has had to deal with being an extreme minority along with impostor syndrome and all that jazz. I've attended two "elite" majority higher ed institutions and the most confident black folks I ever have come across have universally come from HBCUs. That confidence can really go a long way to making it in a workplace.

[Mullens]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

I'm not sure that you can go to a school and say, "give me all your URM students, we don't want to talk to the white kids" I feel like there may be laws about that sort of thing.

Yeah, well affirmative action, or admitting students based on "diversity" is blatantly discrimination, for whatever reason, and there are certainly laws against that, but that is a different discussion.

The fact is though, you don't basically have to walk in and say "we only want black students, no white applicants". If a firm sends a notice to a school's stating they are seeking to improve their diversity, I'm certain the school would have no issue, and more than likely would get applauded for, making such a thing happen by setting up a special networking session or OCI, and there are plenty of respectable schools a reasonable distance from DC. I remember at my school they were services established just for minority or disadvantaged students, and everyone knows about URM boosts.

Regardless, I feel like that answer here relating to diversity make sense (especially in light of the top quarter= 30 students comment), but I feel like there may still be something more here. But maybe not.

Excellent legal analysis from a prospective law student as always! I actually think there is more of a URM boost in legal hiring than there is in admissions. I agree with everyone that it's firms trying to hire diverse students. This discussion is probably getting too close to an affirmative action discussion, but I would not recommend white applicants going to Howard thinking they have a better shot at biglaw due to Howard's unusually high placement rate.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The other thing no one has mentioned is the alumni network factor. Howard has been around for a long time and HBCUs tend to have pretty strong identities and missions around supporting African-American advancement - like Morehouse and Spelman. And because it's been (relatively) successful in placing students into biglaw, there are Howard grads out there to keep finding jobs for the pipeline of Howard grads. I'm sure there can be strong bonds between AA alumni of the T14, but there are fewer of them, and loyalty to Michigan/UVA/wherever isn't usually defined so much in terms of race.

[lightofurlife]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

What do you mean by "yield much better candidates"

You are aware many of the students at Howard were accepted into the schools you deem have "better" candidates.

Myself included. I feel for me personally Howard is the superior choice. That doesn't mean I can't and won't outperform candidates at higher ranked schools.

Choosing Howard is not settling. Firms are not hiring based on skin color they are hiring based on skill level.

There is no reason to not recruit from the top 20% of Howard, the candidates are perfectly capable.

No one is "settling" how insulting of you. Black students don't walk up and go I'm black so hire me how asinine of you to imply that. We work just as hard to succeed as our peers, the reason why Howard had to even come into existence is because we were deemed too inferior to attend white institutions. You think I want to give my money to a school who 100 years ago would have rejected me based on my skin color? Heck no. I'd rather attend a school with a legacy of accepting students of ANY color so long as they can intellectually compete. So yes, Howard has firms recruiting their students, so that students like myself who choose to go to a school where we will feel comfortable can have a chance at gainful employment as well. We earn it like everyone else.

My employment prospects should not decrease because I choose to be educated in an environment where I'm the majority. After all that privelage is afforded to white students is it not? How would you like it if you had to go to a school where you were a minority just for employment? Recruiting at Howard is a way of evening the playing field and allowing black students to have the privilege that so many other students don't even realize they have.

I can't with your superiority complex.

[Louis1127]

That was quite possibly the biggest straw man I have ever seen.

[fliptrip]

I'm a little surprised to see this necro'd, but you can't argue that legal employers are blind to race in their recruiting when Howard is placing students in biglaw far above what similarly ranked schools do. What's different between those schools and Howard? I'll give you two guesses, but you'll only need one.

I think Howard makes a lot of sense for an AA who for whatever reason doesn't want to go to the top 14. It's BL + FC % is higher than a lot of schools in the 20+ range ranking wise, meaning schools like Iowa, Arizona State, William and Mary and Minnesota.

[jnwa]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

What do you mean by "yield much better candidates"

You are aware many of the students at Howard were accepted into the schools you deem have "better" candidates.

Myself included. I feel for me personally Howard is the superior choice. That doesn't mean I can't and won't outperform candidates at higher ranked schools.

Choosing Howard is not settling. Firms are not hiring based on skin color they are hiring based on skill level.

There is no reason to not recruit from the top 20% of Howard, the candidates are perfectly capable.

No one is "settling" how insulting of you. Black students don't walk up and go I'm black so hire me how asinine of you to imply that. We work just as hard to succeed as our peers, the reason why Howard had to even come into existence is because we were deemed too inferior to attend white institutions. You think I want to give my money to a school who 100 years ago would have rejected me based on my skin color? Heck no. I'd rather attend a school with a legacy of accepting students of ANY color so long as they can intellectually compete. So yes, Howard has firms recruiting their students, so that students like myself who choose to go to a school where we will comfortable can have a chance at gainful employment as well. We earn it like everyone else.

I can't with your superiority complex.

To be fair he wasn't really saying that. If someone is top 20% at Howard they outcompeted a class with a 150 median. If a black student is top 20% at UVA or Cornell they outcompeted a class with a 167 or 168 median. The latter is much harder in fact there probably aren't any 150s at Cornell or UVA at all while half of Howard has a score of that or lower.

Obviously the LSAT isnt the be all and end all of qualifications but its essentially the only proxy we have for class quality. As such placing top 20% at Howard doesn't say a lot about how one does vs a student at a t14 because your grades are being curved against a much different pool.

Not to say attending Howard is a bad idea, it might be better than a t14 for a variety of reasons; cost, goals environment but I'd be wary of choosing it over other options because of legacies of segregation. While I respect your resolve in principle, id say attend the law school that's best for you and your goals, if being around black people has a significant effect on your ability to succeed then by all means hit up Howard.

[lightofurlife]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

What do you mean by "yield much better candidates"

You are aware many of the students at Howard were accepted into the schools you deem have "better" candidates.

Myself included. I feel for me personally Howard is the superior choice. That doesn't mean I can't and won't outperform candidates at higher ranked schools.

Choosing Howard is not settling. Firms are not hiring based on skin color they are hiring based on skill level.

There is no reason to not recruit from the top 20% of Howard, the candidates are perfectly capable.

No one is "settling" how insulting of you. Black students don't walk up and go I'm black so hire me how asinine of you to imply that. We work just as hard to succeed as our peers, the reason why Howard had to even come into existence is because we were deemed too inferior to attend white institutions. You think I want to give my money to a school who 100 years ago would have rejected me based on my skin color? Heck no. I'd rather attend a school with a legacy of accepting students of ANY color so long as they can intellectually compete. So yes, Howard has firms recruiting their students, so that students like myself who choose to go to a school where we will comfortable can have a chance at gainful employment as well. We earn it like everyone else.

I can't with your superiority complex.

To be fair he wasn't really saying that. If someone is top 20% at Howard they outcompeted a class with a 150 median. If a black student is top 20% at UVA or Cornell they outcompeted a class with a 167 or 168 median. The latter is much harder in fact there probably aren't any 150s at Cornell or UVA at all while half of Howard has a score of that or lower.

Obviously the LSAT isnt the be all and end all of qualifications but its essentially the only proxy we have for class quality. As such placing top 20% at Howard doesn't say a lot about how one does vs a student at a t14 because your grades are being curved against a much different pool.

Not to say attending Howard is a bad idea, it might be better than a t14 for a variety of reasons; cost, goals environment but I'd be wary of choosing it over other options because of legacies of segregation. While I respect your resolve in principle, id say attend the law school that's best for you and your goals, if being around black people has a significant effect on your ability to succeed then by all means hit up Howard.

He didn't say UVA or Cornell though, he said Washington and Lee. I'm with you if we're talking Yale, Harvard, Stanford ect but you mean to tell me firms should rely on just choosing from the 5 students at Washington and lee instead of recruiting at howard??? Are the candidates REALLY that much better?

That's what I was insulted by, the poster spoke as if howard grads were just trash and can't compete.

That was quite possibly the biggest straw man I have ever seen.

It's quite a wild accusation to say firms are hiring at Howard just because of the ethnicity of their students and to imply that they aren't capable. If this is the case how do firms even decide upon candidates. Do they just close their eyes and pick a random negreo?

How does it work if howard students are being picked by skin color?? What's the formula???

I don't understand why people are so offended at firms recruiting from Howard.

[jnwa]

this really is bullshit, why not just go to better schools and go deeper down the class

costs more

This. A class of 120 has to have a top quarter of 30 people. One trip to OCI and one registration fee to interview those 30. Mission accomplished. Plus it's right in DC, so it's even less costly for the DC firms.

Does this principle apply to all schools near the DC market? Any idea how URM job applicants in places like Virginia (i.e William & Mary, Washington and Lee) stand?

I honestly feel like it would be more effective to scout URM's from higher ranked schools in neighboring area than to settle for Howard. One letter to the Black Law Students Association at one of those school's or even a short car trip would yield much better applicants, for not much more of cost.

What do you mean by "yield much better candidates"

You are aware many of the students at Howard were accepted into the schools you deem have "better" candidates.

Myself included. I feel for me personally Howard is the superior choice. That doesn't mean I can't and won't outperform candidates at higher ranked schools.

Choosing Howard is not settling. Firms are not hiring based on skin color they are hiring based on skill level.

There is no reason to not recruit from the top 20% of Howard, the candidates are perfectly capable.

No one is "settling" how insulting of you. Black students don't walk up and go I'm black so hire me how asinine of you to imply that. We work just as hard to succeed as our peers, the reason why Howard had to even come into existence is because we were deemed too inferior to attend white institutions. You think I want to give my money to a school who 100 years ago would have rejected me based on my skin color? Heck no. I'd rather attend a school with a legacy of accepting students of ANY color so long as they can intellectually compete. So yes, Howard has firms recruiting their students, so that students like myself who choose to go to a school where we will comfortable can have a chance at gainful employment as well. We earn it like everyone else.

I can't with your superiority complex.

To be fair he wasn't really saying that. If someone is top 20% at Howard they outcompeted a class with a 150 median. If a black student is top 20% at UVA or Cornell they outcompeted a class with a 167 or 168 median. The latter is much harder in fact there probably aren't any 150s at Cornell or UVA at all while half of Howard has a score of that or lower.

Obviously the LSAT isnt the be all and end all of qualifications but its essentially the only proxy we have for class quality. As such placing top 20% at Howard doesn't say a lot about how one does vs a student at a t14 because your grades are being curved against a much different pool.

Not to say attending Howard is a bad idea, it might be better than a t14 for a variety of reasons; cost, goals environment but I'd be wary of choosing it over other options because of legacies of segregation. While I respect your resolve in principle, id say attend the law school that's best for you and your goals, if being around black people has a significant effect on your ability to succeed then by all means hit up Howard.

He didn't say UVA or Cornell though, he said Washington and Lee. I'm with you if we're talking Yale, Harvard, Stanford ect but you mean to tell me firms should rely on just choosing from the 5 students at Washington and lee instead of recruiting at howard??? Are the candidates REALLY that much better?

That's what I was insulted by, the poster spoke as if howard grads were just trash and can't compete.

That was quite possibly the biggest straw man I have ever seen.

It's quite a wild accusation to say firms are hiring at Howard just because of the ethnicity of their students and to imply that they aren't capable. If this is the case how do firms even decide upon candidates. Do they just close their eyes and pick a random negreo?

How does it work if howard students are being picked by skin color?? What's the formula???

I don't understand why people are so offended at firms recruiting from Howard.

I think at least a couple of people posting in this thread are black(myself included) so it's not like were offended that people are recruiting from Howard but rather that the fact that their biglaw+FC numbers are relatively high for their rank is probably due to the fact that the school is full of black students.

Some people just happened to wonder why rather than pick off the top 20% at Harvard firms don't just reach deeper at higher ranked schools. Which is a valid question that I don't have an answer to. I don't know why you found that offensive. I'm sure a top 20% Howard student is qualified but are they more qualified than someone that's median at a Washington and Lee? I'm not sure. Wondering why the latter should get a job over the former is valid imo and doesn't discredit the qualifications of Howard students.

[lightofurlife]

Ithink at least a couple of people posting in this thread are black(myself included) so it's not like were offended that people are recruiting from Howard but rather that the fact that their biglaw+FC numbers are relatively high for their rank is probably due to the fact that the school is full of black students.

Some people just happened to wonder why rather than pick off the top 20% at Harvard firms don't just reach deeper at higher ranked schools. Which is a valid question that I don't have an answer to. I don't know why you found that offensive. I'm sure a top 20% Howard student is qualified but are they more qualified than someone that's median at a Washington and Lee? I'm not sure. Wondering why the latter should get a job over the former is valid imo and doesn't discredit the qualifications of Howard students.

Washington and lee literally has like 10 black students though. I think black students just aren't attracted to the school so to me it's obvious why a firm wouldn't recruit diverse students at a school that doesn't attract a lot of diverse talent.

Harvard is another animal. Im positive the black students there have no shortage of job opportunities.

Firms have to account for students who are competitive that select HBCUs instead of top 20 schools. There are black students who have the numbers to get into top 20 schools but choose not to attend for various reasons and I think firms realize this so even if they recruit from howard and don't end up selecting anyone from that particular class it is worth the effort to make sure diverse top talent is secured.

It is not fair imo to deem students who choose to attend HBCUs less competent because they chose to attend an HBCU. If all high caliber black students went to PWIs HBCUs would cease to exist.

I'm one of those students who was accepted into top 20 schools but chose to attend Howard and I appreciate that I won't be penalized with a crappy oci because of my choice.

[fliptrip]

Firms have to account for students who are competitive that select HBCUs Howard instead of top 20 schools.

There are five HBCU law schools. Here are their BL + FC%s:

Howard: 24%
TSU: 1%
Southern: 2%
FAMU: 2%
NCCU: 2%

Clearly the firms have figured out where the quality is and they are happy to go to HU to get the types of candidates they are looking for. I do think it's a very interesting discussion about this phenomenon in where black students choose to matriculate.

And by the way, LOL, just LOL at not going deeper in a class of 5 black kids at Washington and Lee. 5?!

[BruceWayne]

Something that I and a lot of other URMs who have attended highly ranked schools have learned over the years that the OP doesn't realize is that firms simply prefer hiring minorities with high grades from almost anywhere over digging deep into the class at a top school to get them. Howard provides the perfect opportunity for this. Because it is a HBCU almost all of the students who land in the top 20 percent are going to be Black. Whereas at a top 14 you're looking at a tiny number of minority students who fall into the top of the ranking scale. Firms really hate the idea of hiring below median and bottom of the class students from almost any school--URM or not. And that's where the majority of black students are going to fall at the top 14 schools. As an aside, this also means that the URM boost is MUCH bigger in admissions than hiring. URM bottom of the class top 14 is going to struggle getting a job ITE. Top of the class Howard is going to destroy URM below median top 14 (excluding HYS) job wise.