Am I Silly For Considering WUSTL? Forum

[LittleGiants16]

Hi everyone,

This post may be a bit premature, but I'd like all of your opinion on the following:

Over the past few days, I've received what I believe to be my final offer from WUSTL. They've offered full tuition, a $10,000 per year stipend, and a Dean's Fellowship. With all of this, I'm looking at roughly $45,000 in debt (assuming the COA increases a bit over my three years) after my time at WUSTL. I will be debt financing my way through law school, so the debt load is an obvious concern.

While this is a great offer, I've also been awarded a Butler from Columbia. Additionally, I've been admitted to Chicago, NYU, and Duke, and am still waiting to hear from Harvard and Yale. I have not received scholarship offers from any schools besides Columbia and WashU. My stats are 174/3.88 and have taken the LSAT once.

Normally, it seems that the conventional wisdom around here is to go to the best school that gives you a decent offer (in my case Columbia, at least at this point). The wrinkle for me, however, is that I both love St. Louis and would be very comfortable landing there after law school. I have family in the city, grew up just a few hours down I70, and have been a life-long diehard fan of both the Cardinals and the Blues. CWE has a vibe that I adore, with its eclectic mix of shops and restaurants, and the cost of living can hardly be beaten.

Further, I'm not sure that I want to pursue biglaw in a major city, or even biglaw at all. That seems to be a common goal around here, but I'd be much more comfortable living in a midsize, Midwestern city like Columbus, Indianapolis, of St. Louis, rather than NYC or Chicago. Further, I'm not sold on the idea of big firm practice, and, at least for me, midlaw to small biglaw in a mid-market would be ideal. For me working for a firm like Faegre Baker Daniels out of Indianapolis (I know they're a big firm, but they're not Latham) would far more preferable than working for S&C in NYC.

So, I suppose my question is this. If I don't have much interest in landing in NYC/Chicago/East Coast, and I'd prefer not to land in the biggest of big firms, am I wrong to be considering taking the money? Your thoughts are appreciated.

[Alpal29]

You're not wrong to be taking the money. My biggest concern with WUSTL was that I wasn't a native and would have to convince people I wanted to stay in St. Louis for employment. You don't have that issue. I think for your career goals and aspirations, it makes sense.

[pppp]

The amount of debt you will be in to go to Columbia will almost force you to do big law for a little while post grad. For most people, Columbia is the obvious choice here. For you, WUSTL is somewhat obvious. Debt is a huge deal, and wash u I'm sure has an outstanding reputation in the region you want to live in.

[NUDad]

I wouldn't say you were silly for considering WUSTL, but I would strongly consider Chicago, depending on what $$$ they end up offering, since you have ties to the Midwest and wish to stay there long term. Chicago will undoubtedly give you opportunities you would not have coming out of WUSTL, assuming of course that you perform well there.

[Johann]

you are silly for considering law school with a 3.8 in a good economy.

[transferror]

As it stands, WUSTL makes the most sense.

Even if you get a Mordecai/Dillard/Darrow or 150k at NU, I still think WUSTL makes sense with your goals. It would be a more difficult decision, but you sound like the quintessential candidate for a strong regional = sub-50k debt + ties + geographic preference with STL specifically as a target city + no biglaw or bust.

[LittleGiants16]

you are silly for considering law school with a 3.8 in a good economy.

Why? #flame

[Johann]

you are silly for considering law school with a 3.8 in a good economy.

Why? #flame

no. im a lawyer. the regret of law school for lawyers in big firms is over 80%. the regret for lawyers not in biglaw is probably close to the same 60-75, and so many end up leaving law. start working now and make some money. revisit law if its something you know what it entails.

the pay just isnt that good. you arent going to get hired out of the gate at those firms probably and would need a couple years of experience at a big firm in NYC, Chicago, Texas, or Cali. then you are going to take a 35% pay cut to work at the places you want to work just as much.

[BigZuck]

you are silly for considering law school with a 3.8 in a good economy.

Why? #flame

no. im a lawyer. the regret of law school for lawyers in big firms is over 80%. the regret for lawyers not in biglaw is probably close to the same 60-75, and so many end up leaving law. start working now and make some money. revisit law if its something you know what it entails.

the pay just isnt that good. you arent going to get hired out of the gate at those firms probably and would need a couple years of experience at a big firm in NYC, Chicago, Texas, or Cali. then you are going to take a 35% pay cut to work at the places you want to work just as much.

I'm just curious where the 80% and 65-70% thing came from? Is that from a study or a survey?

Not disputing the notion that lots of lawyers don't like being lawyers, just wondering where you saw that.

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm a little nervous that you said you don't want biglaw but the only job you listed as a potential interest is a biglaw firm. WUSTL is fine given the money and your geographic goals but you might need to get a little more comfortable with the kinds of jobs people actually get from there. Don't chase unicorns.

[PeanutsNJam]

Since employment should be your primary concern, here are a few things to consider.

THE GOOD:

- You're certainly right that working in St. Louis, given what you've said in the OP, will be infinitely better than working in NYC. Johann's testimony is resoundingly true for working at firms like Latham in NYC, where the cost of living is high, you have a lot of debt, and they treat you like a cog. However, St. Louis biglaw (by biglaw I mean market paying NLJ 250 firms) is not the same. Many firms here have no facetime requirements, the average associate bills 1800/year without being canned, and manage to do work by their 3rd or 4th year that most midlevels in NYC have yet to touch. They work 8-6, with occasional weekends. The worst gripe I've heard is when a partner demands you use two spaces after a period instead of one. Bryan Cave, to some extent, is an exception.

- The salary/CoL ratio is way, way better in St. Louis than it is in any other major market. Chicago's not bad, but St. L is only beat by Texas cities mostly.

- While grades are important, they are not king in the St. Louis legal market. Ties are king. Strong ties, like yours, can overcome less than stellar grades. Similarly, strong grades (like top 5%) can overcome weak/no ties, but one can lead you to success in the absence of the other. If you're diverse and interview well as well, then I wouldn't be surprised if you can snag St. Louis biglaw by being in the top third.

- At the very least, for 1L SAs, the firms that aren't Bryan Cave hire almost exclusively from Wash U, SLU, or Missou. Not saying you can't come back to stl with your ties from Harvard or Columbia, just that it doesn't happen often.

- There are ample small firms around that you can get in through connections, ties, and hustle, without great grades. They don't pay market, but hey life free lunches and things.

THE BAD:

- There are only so many St. Louis SA positions available; your ability to get whatever you want short of clerkships is much weaker than it would be at Columbia. You may end up with a job you hate.

- You still need good grades. You can't guarantee you'll be above median, much less top 3rd, or top 10%. This is a calculated risk you will have to take. I managed to be near the top of my class while working less than many of my peers in the Fall; I think 80% of that is luck, and I bet it'll go down this semester, but I have some idea about what type of person does well in law school. PM me for deets if you want to help you make the risk calculation.

FWIW, even with my grades, I doubt I can snag a 1L SA with a St. Louis firm; ties are that important. People like me may be forced to go to major markets for 2L SAs as well.

[WinterComing]

I'm a fellow applicant, so I'm not qualified to tell you where to go to school, but I do have some potentially relevant info with regard to St. Louis.

I've lived here for the past several years, and I love it. It's crazy cheap, so making $120K here goes way further than making $160K in New York. It's a great city to raise a family. It's a great baseball town. It's got great parks, great architecture, great restaurants, a great arts scene. That said, it's a really insular market. There's a famous local trope where the first question people ask when they meet is, "Where did you go to high school?" Stuff like that is sort of cutely Midwestern, but it's a sign of the overall provincialism. You can look up the demographic stats, but people tend to stay in St. Louis their whole lives. And the city is literally a good old boys' club—tons of business deals happen as part of a secret society called the Veiled Prophet, where a decent chunk of the white male members are like descended from city founders Pierre Laclede and Auguste Chouteau. St. Louis also has a big inferiority complex, where people are really skeptical of outsiders who claim they want to move here (and the fact that we just lost another NFL team won't help).

Which is all to say that connections here are super, super important, possibly even more so than when considering other top regional schools. It sounds like you have family in St. Louis, so that should help. Firms like Armstrong Teasdale and Bryan Cave, which are St. Louis' version of Big Law, certainly hire people from Wash. U., and presumably not all of them grew up in St. Louis, since Wash. U. absolutely pulls students from all over the country. And I've heard anecdotally that Wash. U. grads do fairly well in Kansas City and Chicago, though the latter is obviously a really crowded market. But like, Bryan Cave's managing partner is a third generation Wash. U. grad. You'll run into that sort of thing a lot in St. Louis. Maybe you're OK with that, but fair warning.

[WinterComing]

- While grades are important, they are not king in the St. Louis legal market. Ties are king. Strong ties, like yours, can overcome less than stellar grades. Similarly, strong grades (like top 5%) can overcome weak/no ties, but one can lead you to success in the absence of the other. If you're diverse and interview well as well, then I wouldn't be surprised if you can snag St. Louis biglaw by being in the top third.

- At the very least, for 1L SAs, the firms that aren't Bryan Cave hire almost exclusively from Wash U, SLU, or Missou. Not saying you can't come back to stl with your ties from Harvard or Columbia, just that it doesn't happen often.

This part of Peanuts' advice is exactly what I was trying to get at.

[Johann]

you are silly for considering law school with a 3.8 in a good economy.

Why? #flame

no. im a lawyer. the regret of law school for lawyers in big firms is over 80%. the regret for lawyers not in biglaw is probably close to the same 60-75, and so many end up leaving law. start working now and make some money. revisit law if its something you know what it entails.

the pay just isnt that good. you arent going to get hired out of the gate at those firms probably and would need a couple years of experience at a big firm in NYC, Chicago, Texas, or Cali. then you are going to take a 35% pay cut to work at the places you want to work just as much.

I'm just curious where the 80% and 65-70% thing came from? Is that from a study or a survey?

Not disputing the notion that lots of lawyers don't like being lawyers, just wondering where you saw that.

Comes from the fact that 50% of big law attorneys quit big law within 2 years and one third of lawyers leave law within 3 years. Also confirmed by what I've seen in practice and from peers.

[Tempo]

you are silly for considering law school with a 3.8 in a good economy.

Why? #flame

no. im a lawyer. the regret of law school for lawyers in big firms is over 80%. the regret for lawyers not in biglaw is probably close to the same 60-75, and so many end up leaving law. start working now and make some money. revisit law if its something you know what it entails.

the pay just isnt that good. you arent going to get hired out of the gate at those firms probably and would need a couple years of experience at a big firm in NYC, Chicago, Texas, or Cali. then you are going to take a 35% pay cut to work at the places you want to work just as much.

I'm just curious where the 80% and 65-70% thing came from? Is that from a study or a survey?

Not disputing the notion that lots of lawyers don't like being lawyers, just wondering where you saw that.

Comes from the fact that 50% of big law attorneys quit big law within 2 years and one third of lawyers leave law within 3 years. Also confirmed by what I've seen in practice and from peers.

If 1/3 of lawyers leave law in 3 years, wouldn't the dissatisfaction be 33% not 70%? Of course there's room for error in that number, but I'm wondering why you took the 1/3 leaving stat and then extrapolated to a 70% dissatisfaction rate.

[James.K.Polk]

I'm a fellow applicant, so I'm not qualified to tell you where to go to school, but I do have some potentially relevant info with regard to St. Louis.

I've lived here for the past several years, and I love it. It's crazy cheap, so making $120K here goes way further than making $160K in New York. It's a great city to raise a family. It's a great baseball town. It's got great parks, great architecture, great restaurants, a great arts scene. That said, it's a really insular market. There's a famous local trope where the first question people ask when they meet is, "Where did you go to high school?" Stuff like that is sort of cutely Midwestern, but it's a sign of the overall provincialism. You can look up the demographic stats, but people tend to stay in St. Louis their whole lives. And the city is literally a good old boys' club—tons of business deals happen as part of a secret society called the Veiled Prophet, where a decent chunk of the white male members are like descended from city founders Pierre Laclede and Auguste Chouteau. St. Louis also has a big inferiority complex, where people are really skeptical of outsiders who claim they want to move here (and the fact that we just lost another NFL team won't help).

1. I went to WUSTL for undergrad and let me tell you, this is not a plus, it's a minus. This from a massive Twins fan. See: https://twitter.com/BestFansStLouis

2. St. Louis is trying really, really hard to be a start-up hub. I think in the medical technologies field, it's working. I almost took a position at a place called Confluence Biosystems, which was in a huge building filled with tech/bio startups. Not saying this means you'll get a job at one right away, but if it means it can follow in the footsteps of, say, Austin - that's only a good thing.

3. Anyone considering it, PM me (or any other STL people) for advice on where to live. I lived in 3 different neighborhoods during my time, and have lots of opinions.

[SowhatsNU]

Columbia in a heartbeat (assuming H doesn't give you better via financial aid and Chicago doesn't up The scholly) I've gone to school at both at this point and it's not even a question. Feel free to PM me.

[Tls2016]

You really need to consider the number of Midwest jobs in small biglaw or whatever you called it. I think the number is small and there are a number of schools in the area that compete for them. People end up in New York because it is a huge market.It's not like you can just choose to get the job you are seeking by going to WUSTL because there aren't that many jobs available.

If you would be happy in the Midwest with a firm smaller than the Indianapolis outpost of a biglaw firm, the take the money. If you really want a biglaw job even if you have to take the big city version for a while, go to Columbia.

[Mullens]

With your stats, you should be looking at some full ride offers in the lower T14. Did you apply to any other lower T14 schools like Michigan, Cornell, Berkeley or Northwestern? If not, you should do so before the app deadlines. I would be shocked if you couldn't negotiate scholarships in a full ride somewhere better than WUSTL and applying to more schools gives you more potential leverage. The upfront cost is worth it. The problem with WUSTL is that there is a huge placement deficient between it and the T14. A huge scholarship at a midwestern T14 aligns more with your goals than WUSTL.

[Otunga]

45k is still a non-trivial amount of debt when a quarter of WUSTL students don't get any law job at all. Just make sure you really would be okay making 40-60k in small law or PI, since that's the standard outcome out of WUSTL if no biglaw.

[smaug]

I'm kinda dying at pnj's paean to STL biglaw.

[RareExports]

Yes. Take the Butler. If you have ties to STL, you should be able to land well here from Columbia, and your law school stays on your resume for life.

[BigZuck]

I'm kinda dying at pnj's paean to STL biglaw.

What part of no facetime requirement, 1800 billables, and early responsibility do you not understand?

NO facetime requirement dude. None. And not a cog in sight.

(PNJ- wait until your SA and you jump on the elevator Monday morning and the junior associate tells you that they pulled an all nighter the night before. What big lawyers say while recruiting or even in informational interviews and stuff doesn't always align with reality)

[Tls2016]

I'm kinda dying at pnj's paean to STL biglaw.

What part of no facetime requirement, 1800 billables, and early responsibility do you not understand?

NO facetime requirement dude. None. And not a cog in sight.

(PNJ- wait until your SA and you jump on the elevator Monday morning and the junior associate tells you that they pulled an all nighter the night before. What big lawyers say while recruiting or even in informational interviews and stuff doesn't always align with reality)

Wait, he wrote all that and he doesn't even work at a law firm?
OP should just take the Butler if he wants a job as a lawyer or doesn't get better offers. There aren't that many jobs in the Midwest.

[smaug]

I actually think WUSTL makes sense if he wants it more than he wants NY biglaw.

I just thought the glorification of midlaw was funny.