How Important is Rank? Forum

[liyorah]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

[Lincoln]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

Why do you want to go to law school?

[landshoes]

All three of those schools are great. Cost is an issue as well, though, and so is personal fit.

Have you received scholarship money from any of the schools? Have you had the chance to visit any of the schools? Are you applying to business school right now? Do you know your chances of getting into Wharton if you go to Penn?

[liyorah]

All three of those schools are great. Cost is an issue as well, though, and so is personal fit.

Have you received scholarship money from any of the schools? Have you had the chance to visit any of the schools? Are you applying to business school right now? Do you know your chances of getting into Wharton if you go to Penn?

No scholarships as of right now, but I'm assuming I can bargain my way into some money with Georgetown and Penn strictly because of Chicago. Finances are not a big concern of mine, though, which I realize puts me in a very lucky position. My parents are footing the bill and they genuinely just want me to go to where I think I'd get the most opportunity.
I have visited Georgetown and Penn (not Chicago). I loved both campuses and obviously D.C. but truly did not love Philly. I'm not positive of my chances at Wharton - I would apply next year during my 1L year and take the GMAT this summer. My GPA is very high though so it would mostly depend on my GMAT score.

[liyorah]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

Why do you want to go to law school?

Very interested in either working directly with China in trade or with the United Nations.

[fliptrip]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

Why do you want to go to law school?

Very interested in either working directly with China in trade or with the United Nations.

I still don't see how those interests connect to law school. I can see the MBA since you mentioned business, but you didn't mention anything about practicing law, which is the first, best, and damn near only reason to go to law school.

Anyway, if you're still committed to doing JD/MBA, go to Chicago. Both their law and business schools are in the same "tier" in their respective fields, which is pretty excellent.

[malleus discentium]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

What do you think "international law" is, in either the business context or the diplomacy context? Why do you think a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold? What international connections do you think you will be building in Chicago?

[Aeon]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

Why do you want to go to law school?

Very interested in either working directly with China in trade or with the United Nations.

The reality is that the pure "international law" positions are very rare and are taken up predominantly by people with the highest pedigrees: think Yale (and Harvard and Stanford, to a lesser degree). There are plenty of corporate law jobs that involve some cross-border activities, but this is the extent of internationalism in the overwhelming majority of people's practices.

Others in this thread are questioning whether you actually want to go into law. I too get the sense that you are more interested in international relations than in legal practice. There's nothing wrong with that, but law school might not be a great fit for your career goals.

[liyorah]

To all who answered my forum
I genuinely appreciate the advice and I do understand where your questions for my intent are coming from but rest assured, law school is what I want to be doing, and that is all I am really going to say on the matter of whether or not I am suited to it. We'll have to find out for real next year if I can withstand the heat.
From the responses to my question, it seems Chicago is a consensus. Thank you all! If you have any other advice I'd love to hear it!

[liyorah]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

Why do you want to go to law school?

Very interested in either working directly with China in trade or with the United Nations.

The reality is that the pure "international law" positions are very rare and are taken up predominantly by people with the highest pedigrees: think Yale (and Harvard and Stanford, to a lesser degree). There are plenty of corporate law jobs that involve some cross-border activities, but this is the extent of internationalism in the overwhelming majority of people's practices.

Others in this thread are questioning whether you actually want to go into law. I too get the sense that you are more interested in international relations than in legal practice. There's nothing wrong with that, but law school might not be a great fit for your career goals.

Ah, I understand where you're coming from on pure international law - as in writing international guidelines, correct? But for international trade or working in The Hague (which a friend of mine surprisingly from WVU got to clerk in) on diplomacy, do you think Georgetown carries more name weight than Chicago?

[liyorah]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

What do you think "international law" is, in either the business context or the diplomacy context? Why do you think a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold? What international connections do you think you will be building in Chicago?

For business, I am discussing more trade agreements with foreign companies.
For diplomacy, perhaps that is too broad of an area...
I think a JD/MBA would be a good combination to hold in that I could understand the technicalities of business to a higher extent and perhaps one day start my own company without needing to go back to school.
Chicago is definitely a bigger city than Philly and I know that there is more opportunity to directly work with business during internships that have offices overseas. But that's really all I'm basing it on - I should probably do a bit more research before just insticually assuming there is a more international vibe there haha

[Aeon]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

Why do you want to go to law school?

Very interested in either working directly with China in trade or with the United Nations.

The reality is that the pure "international law" positions are very rare and are taken up predominantly by people with the highest pedigrees: think Yale (and Harvard and Stanford, to a lesser degree). There are plenty of corporate law jobs that involve some cross-border activities, but this is the extent of internationalism in the overwhelming majority of people's practices.

Others in this thread are questioning whether you actually want to go into law. I too get the sense that you are more interested in international relations than in legal practice. There's nothing wrong with that, but law school might not be a great fit for your career goals.

Ah, I understand where you're coming from on pure international law - as in writing international guidelines, correct? But for international trade or working in The Hague (which a friend of mine surprisingly from WVU got to clerk in) on diplomacy, do you think Georgetown carries more name weight than Chicago?

Plenty of BigLaw firms do international trade-related work, which involves advising companies on their international activities and overseas projects and whatnot. I think Chicago will give you a better chance of securing a BigLaw job than Georgetown and thus a better shot at being an associate in an international trade group.

I'm not very familiar with what it takes to clerk at The Hague. I think generally Georgetown is thought to have more of an "international" bent, but I don't know enough about how that translates into clerking at the ICJ and similar institutions.

[fliptrip]

Hi guys. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on where I want to go to law school. After getting into Chicago, Georgetown, and Penn, I'd say I've had a decently successful season, but I am having trouble picking where is best.
I want to go into international law. Either business or diplomacy - I haven't decided yet.
Obviously, when first starting the process, Gtown was my top choice. But after I got into Penn and saw their half year study abroad program in Beijing (I speak conversant Chinese), I started thinking differently. Besides that, if I ended up getting into Wharton, a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold.
Then, once I got into Chicago, I started becoming a rankings slave. Besides this, I feel Chicago would be a better environment for myself alongside the different connections I can build internationally in the big city.
Could someone give me some advice? Everyone I talk to has been out of law school for at least 10+ years.

What do you think "international law" is, in either the business context or the diplomacy context? Why do you think a JD/MBA would be a very good combination to hold? What international connections do you think you will be building in Chicago?

For business, I am discussing more trade agreements with foreign companies.
For diplomacy, perhaps that is too broad of an area...
I think a JD/MBA would be a good combination to hold in that I could understand the technicalities of business to a higher extent and perhaps one day start my own company without needing to go back to school.
Chicago is definitely a bigger city than Philly and I know that there is more opportunity to directly work with business during internships that have offices overseas. But that's really all I'm basing it on - I should probably do a bit more research before just insticually assuming there is a more international vibe there haha

This first sentence here is what is causing the confusion. The JD and the MBA do not mutually serve each other. The MBA can help you as a JD by giving you some more technical knowledge about business concepts that may make you a better adviser to clients and also expose you to things like strategy which are pretty antithetical to the way a lawyer is trained. The JD does not help the MBA at all, so if you have anything other than lawyer goals, it makes zero sense to get a JD and an MBA, just get the MBA. You have asked several times for advice and the advice keeps getting hung up on this, because the best advice seems to be to not go to law school.

With respect to the bolded, if you want to write the agreement and inspect it for technical soundness, then you should go to law school (that's practicing law). If you want to contribute to making the decisions behind the deal in the first place, that's what an MBA does.

To the point about international connections and b-school, I think its hard for anyone who has not been to b-school to fully understand how international an elite b-school is. 1/4 to 1/3 of your class is international (and diversely so, I went to school with folks from South America, Africa, China, Eastern and Western Europe) and the curriculum and extra-curricular offerings are almost borderless. OP, you will get PLENTY of international exposure and opportunities at Chicago or Penn.

[Gray]

.

[zot1]

I went to an unranked school

[Auxilio]

To all who answered my forum
I genuinely appreciate the advice and I do understand where your questions for my intent are coming from but rest assured, law school is what I want to be doing, and that is all I am really going to say on the matter of whether or not I am suited to it. We'll have to find out for real next year if I can withstand the heat.
From the responses to my question, it seems Chicago is a consensus. Thank you all! If you have any other advice I'd love to hear it!

Not a single person here has said anything about your ability to perform in law school etc., they are just saying it is a waste of time/money.

[pancakes3]

If you want to be a [whatever] lawyer, know that you'll be a lawyer first, and the modifier second - if at all. Sounds like you should do foreign service exam and go state department or business school. JD is not what you're looking for. Lawyers make inputs on the law. Not business, economics, diplomacy, etc.

[landshoes]

You might want to look into the Doctoroff program at Chicago. I can't say whether it would work for your goals, but it's the program for law school students who want to go into business. There's no extra cost involved, and the time commitment is relatively low. (Not an extra year, but you do have to attend certain events.) You have to apply to it, so you should look into it sooner rather than later.

Also, ask to speak with the UChicago career services office about your goals. That will give you a better idea of their resources.

[landshoes]

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/doctoroffbusinessleadership

[jbagelboy]

Don't go to law school with these vague ambitions unless you're already extremely well connected and heading to YLS for the network and credential

Develop something more concrete for yourself

[liyorah]

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/doctoroffbusinessleadership

This is so helpful! I didn't even think of this! Thank you

[Budfox55]

Just curious, but do you have strong work experience? I've noticed a trend here on TLS where people seem to think that admissions for business school is the same as to law school, but replace GMAT with the LSAT. This is not the case. For biz school, work experience>GMAT/GPA. It seems like they go a little easier if you are a JD/MBA applicant or are already a 1L, but for say Wharton, work experience is going to be important. I think you can get into lower tier business schools, like Cornell, while a JD candidate without much work experience, but its going to be important for Wharton.

Source: I know 3 JD/MBAs, one at Penn, one at Cornell, and another at columbia. The Penn and Columbia ones had 2-3 yrs work experience consulting for MBB and doing IB at a BB. The Cornell one did market research for a year.

[wolfintally]

OP, all the responses on this site are for the most part from the ordinary citizen... i.e. Some kids straight out of undergrad who's parents are regular attorneys or business owners.. If your situation is different in that you have connections to trade organizations in Asia or some other (possibly political) connections you should disregard the advice on these boards. The majority of the people on this board only get hired to a position by submitting a resume to some unknown person. I guess what I am trying to tell you is something you probably already know... connections>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rank of school/grades/other crap.

[luckenmeister]

OP, all the responses on this site are for the most part from the ordinary citizen... i.e. Some kids straight out of undergrad who's parents are regular attorneys or business owners.. If your situation is different in that you have connections to trade organizations in Asia or some other (possibly political) connections you should disregard the advice on these boards. The majority of the people on this board only get hired to a position by submitting a resume to some unknown person. I guess what I am trying to tell you is something you probably already know... connections>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rank of school/grades/other crap.

This is originally more of what I thought before the forums. You would think that for the very top positions, the employer is taking a student recommended from a really good friend or taking someone who they actually know over another kid who they don't know that went to a higher ranked school?

It seems that most people say ranking is of utmost importance, but it seems like the arguments are generally based on worst outcome scenarios (i.e. bottom 25% at a # 1 ranked school getting biglaw vs bottom 25% at the #10 ranked school leaving unemployed). It seems like the biggest advantage of the higher ranked schools, aside from greater representation in elite PI/govt. jobs, is the margin of error that it offers. For a really good law student (for OP's sake, lets say Chi top 10% vs Penn top 10%), it doesn't seem to matter quite as much?

[krads153]

If you want to be a [whatever] lawyer, know that you'll be a lawyer first, and the modifier second - if at all. Sounds like you should do foreign service exam and go state department or business school. JD is not what you're looking for. Lawyers make inputs on the law. Not business, economics, diplomacy, etc.

Credited

Also to get the jobs OP is looking at, the only thing that really matters is connections..............