Darrow vs. Harvard $ Forum

[Li'l Sebastian]

What is the objective value of Harvard with 120K (full need aid) vs. Michigan with a Darrow.
I currently have about 32k in undergrad debt.

I've heard people tell me that if I'm a Darrow at Michigan I'll probably have better odds of landing offers with the super big firms because they'll specifically be looking for the Darrow candidates when conducting OCI, but I'm not sure how much weight that resume line will really carry.

I also just talked to a couple attorneys who said that after your first job the school you attended counts for a lot less as well.

My goals are placement in a V5 firm with a strong New York preference and planning to specialize in Mergers and Acquisitions.
I wanna make partner as soon as possible too.

Also should I do a clerkship first?

I need advice and direction here. Help me attorneys and future attorneys of TLS!!!!

[jrc223]

you should probably do a supreme court clerkship before you become a partner at a v5, so my vote is for hahvahd

[Trippel]

My goals are placement in a V5 firm with a strong New York preference and planning to specialize in Mergers and Acquisitions.
I wanna make partner as soon as possible too.

godspeed.

[UnicornHunter]

Good goal you got going there. There's a HUGE drop-off in between SullCrom and Davis Polk and v10 shitholes like Simpson and Kirkland.

If you were only interested in doing M&A in NYC, I'd tell you to take the money and not to look back, but given that you're not the type to settle for shit tier firms that pay the exact same amount of money and do the same type of work as the v5, I think that Harvard is CLEARLY the right choice for you here.

[Li'l Sebastian]

Good goal you got going there. There's a HUGE drop-off in between SullCrom and Davis Polk and v10 shitholes like Simpson and Kirkland.

If you were only interested in doing M&A in NYC, I'd tell you to take the money and not to look back, but given that you're not the type to settle for shit tier firms that pay the exact same amount of money and do the same type of work as the v5, I think that Harvard is CLEARLY the right choice for you here.

I only picked V5 because I saw other people make that distinction!


I'm ignorant! Help me!

[UnicornHunter]

Good goal you got going there. There's a HUGE drop-off in between SullCrom and Davis Polk and v10 shitholes like Simpson and Kirkland.

If you were only interested in doing M&A in NYC, I'd tell you to take the money and not to look back, but given that you're not the type to settle for shit tier firms that pay the exact same amount of money and do the same type of work as the v5, I think that Harvard is CLEARLY the right choice for you here.

I only picked V5 because I saw other people make that distinction!


I'm ignorant! Help me!

Take the Darrow. V5/10/whatever is not a terribly meaningful distinction, and if you want to do corporate work in NYC you're as close to guaranteed success going into OCI as possible from either school. You're not going to make equity partner at your first firm so don't worry about that too much. Certainly, your odds are not better at a V5. Not having debt will give you much more flexibility to do what you want with your career, etc...

[Student of Law]

Good goal you got going there. There's a HUGE drop-off in between SullCrom and Davis Polk and v10 shitholes like Simpson and Kirkland.

If you were only interested in doing M&A in NYC, I'd tell you to take the money and not to look back, but given that you're not the type to settle for shit tier firms that pay the exact same amount of money and do the same type of work as the v5, I think that Harvard is CLEARLY the right choice for you here.

I only picked V5 because I saw other people make that distinction!


I'm ignorant! Help me!

Take the Darrow. V5/10/whatever is not a terribly meaningful distinction, and if you want to do corporate work in NYC you're as close to guaranteed success going into OCI as possible from either school. You're not going to make equity partner at your first firm so don't worry about that too much. Certainly, your odds are not better at a V5. Not having debt will give you much more flexibility to do what you want with your career, etc...

.

[Indifference]

If you want big law I'd take the darrow. If you do a summer at a law firm (which you should) that will directly impact your need aid from H for the following year. Pretty sure they take something like 90% of your income over the summer allowance.

[kaiser]

As someone who is currently in biglaw, I would no doubt urge you to take the Darrow if your goal is to secure a big firm position.

You have no idea how many H grads I have heard say that they wish they had just taken a full ride at a T10. This is especially true for those who end up in biglaw positions.

[landshoes]

the downside is worse at Michigan, getting a darrow isn't a guarantee that you'll get good grades, and only paying COL at Harvard is a sweet deal. I'd go with HLS.

[landshoes]

also, you might find that during law school your goals change (they seem like relatively naive and poorly thought-through goals, frankly, so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't stick with them), and I feel like HLS gives you more flexibility in general. Easier to get into academia, easier to get clerkships, easier to get non-law jobs, etc.

[Li'l Sebastian]

the downside is worse at Michigan, getting a darrow isn't a guarantee that you'll get good grades, and only paying COL at Harvard is a sweet deal. I'd go with HLS.

It wouldn't be only COL. Harvard makes you take out 45K in loans no matter (IIRC) what then finances the rest if you qualify, so it's like 135,000 extra. Possibly more if they factor in summer firm work especially.

also, you might find that during law school your goals change (they seem like relatively naive and poorly thought-through goals, frankly, so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't stick with them), and I feel like HLS gives you more flexibility in general. Easier to get into academia, easier to get clerkships, easier to get non-law jobs, etc.

I was totally expecting your conclusion to be different because I feel like less debt would give anyone more flexibility in career choices.

[kaiser]

OP, I would also urge you to consult with actual, practicing lawyers on this, and not read too much into TLS polls. In many cases, you have the TLS users who are practicing lawyers voting one way, and law students and applicants voting the other way. Not saying that its always the case, but it happens pretty often in polls regarding debt and choices like this. So do your diligence by speaking with actual lawyers about how they approached the same decision.

[Li'l Sebastian]

OP, I would also urge you to consult with actual, practicing lawyers on this, and not read too much into TLS polls. In many cases, you have the TLS users who are practicing lawyers voting one way, and law students and applicants voting the other way. Not saying that its always the case, but it happens pretty often in polls regarding debt and choices like this. So do your diligence by speaking with actual lawyers about how they approached the same decision.

Yes! I was hoping I'd get a lot of attorney's in this thread. I'm trying to ask as many people in my network as possible and reaching out. Hopefully Michigan's preview day will give me a lot more information than I have right meow.

[kaiser]

the downside is worse at Michigan, getting a darrow isn't a guarantee that you'll get good grades, and only paying COL at Harvard is a sweet deal. I'd go with HLS.

It wouldn't be only COL. Harvard makes you take out 45K in loans no matter (IIRC) what then finances the rest if you qualify, so it's like 135,000 extra. Possibly more if they factor in summer firm work especially.

also, you might find that during law school your goals change (they seem like relatively naive and poorly thought-through goals, frankly, so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't stick with them), and I feel like HLS gives you more flexibility in general. Easier to get into academia, easier to get clerkships, easier to get non-law jobs, etc.

I was totally expecting your conclusion to be different because I feel like less debt would give anyone more flexibility in career choices.

Your instinct on that is absolutely right. A small debt load provides a world of flexibility. And the flexibility he mentioned (i.e. academia, clerkships, etc.) may not have any value to you at all. So keeping doors open that you don't place a great value on doesn't justify the marginal difference in cost. If its a definite goal to go the academia route, thats one thing. But just as some passing thought of keeping options open? thats not how you justify spending 100,000 dollars.

[Tls2016]

OP: did you even get accepted to Harvard yet?
Didn't you just retake the LSAT today?

My advice is to calm down and maybe think about your life outside of prestige chasing. Your OP was ridiculous, though possibly you aren't sober.

Either way, if you do get in, I'm certain you will take Harvard and I wish you good luck in your future endeavors. I doubt it would be possible for anyone to convince you not to go.

[landshoes]

well I was going to write a serious response but no longer

[kaiser]

Yeah, not cool.

[Li'l Sebastian]

OP: did you even get accepted to Harvard yet?
Didn't you just retake the LSAT today?

My advice is to calm down and maybe think about your life outside of prestige chasing. Your OP was ridiculous, though possibly you aren't sober.

Either way, if you do get in, I'm certain you will take Harvard and I wish you good luck in your future endeavors. I doubt it would be possible for anyone to convince you not to go.

I retook for a variety of reasons. I teach an LSAT class and tutor on the side so it was mostly for more experience, but also in case of getting wait-listed from Harvard I wanted a way to get out, i.e. higher score.
I had an interview with Harvard, and I know that's by no means a sure thing, I started this thread precisely because of how ignorant I am and I figured it was a decision that (I hope I get to make) I would spend a lot of time thinking about if I do get to make it.

I just want information about things like this because I realize my current world view is very very limited.

[Tls2016]

OP: did you even get accepted to Harvard yet?
Didn't you just retake the LSAT today?

My advice is to calm down and maybe think about your life outside of prestige chasing. Your OP was ridiculous, though possibly you aren't sober.

Either way, if you do get in, I'm certain you will take Harvard and I wish you good luck in your future endeavors. I doubt it would be possible for anyone to convince you not to go.

I retook for a variety of reasons. I teach an LSAT class and tutor on the side so it was mostly for more experience, but also in case of getting wait-listed from Harvard I wanted a way to get out, i.e. higher score.
I had an interview with Harvard, and I know that's by no means a sure thing, I started this thread precisely because of how ignorant I am and I figured it was a decision that (I hope I get to make) I would spend a lot of time thinking about if I do get to make it.

I just want information about things like this because I realize my current world view is very very limited.

But it's an academic exercise until you actually have that choice. There is a forum for 0Ls to ask questions about practice, etc. Maybe ask your M&A questions there? Maybe look into how difficult it is to make partner and learn more about Vault rankings.
Here's one thing: clerkships don't help with M &A. Clerkships are litigation focused. It just puts you behind your class.

I wasn't being glib when I said I doubt you will turn down Harvard. You are already wondering if it's a good idea and you haven't been accepted yet. It seems like Harvard means more to you than the money. Fair enough. Law is filled with people chasing prestige, you are hardly alone.
You will find people on this forum who turned down scholarships for Harvard and regret it when they are in biglaw repaying 6 figures of debt.

I do wish you good luck.

[Li'l Sebastian]

But it's an academic exercise until you actually have that choice. There is a forum for 0Ls to ask questions about practice, etc. Maybe ask your M&A questions there? Maybe look into how difficult it is to make partner and learn more about Vault rankings.
Here's one thing: clerkships don't help with M &A. Clerkships are litigation focused. It just puts you behind your class.

I wasn't being glib when I said I doubt you will turn down Harvard. You are already wondering if it's a good idea and you haven't been accepted yet. It seems like Harvard means more to you than the money. Fair enough. Law is filled with people chasing prestige, you are hardly alone.
You will find people on this forum who turned down scholarships for Harvard and regret it when they are in biglaw repaying 6 figures of debt.

I do wish you good luck.

Thank you, I actually really appreciate this feedback. I'm sorry if I came off as prestige obsessed.

[Tls2016]

But it's an academic exercise until you actually have that choice. There is a forum for 0Ls to ask questions about practice, etc. Maybe ask your M&A questions there? Maybe look into how difficult it is to make partner and learn more about Vault rankings.
Here's one thing: clerkships don't help with M &A. Clerkships are litigation focused. It just puts you behind your class.

I wasn't being glib when I said I doubt you will turn down Harvard. You are already wondering if it's a good idea and you haven't been accepted yet. It seems like Harvard means more to you than the money. Fair enough. Law is filled with people chasing prestige, you are hardly alone.
You will find people on this forum who turned down scholarships for Harvard and regret it when they are in biglaw repaying 6 figures of debt.

I do wish you good luck.

Thank you, I actually really appreciate this feedback. I'm sorry if I came off as prestige obsessed.

It was the V5 M&A and making partner ASAP. Plus clerkship.
That's all prestige stuff and no substance.
Like I said, you are far from alone in using prestige as a partial basis for decision making. Law is a status driven profession.

[WinterComing]

But it's an academic exercise until you actually have that choice. There is a forum for 0Ls to ask questions about practice, etc. Maybe ask your M&A questions there? Maybe look into how difficult it is to make partner and learn more about Vault rankings.
Here's one thing: clerkships don't help with M &A. Clerkships are litigation focused. It just puts you behind your class.

I wasn't being glib when I said I doubt you will turn down Harvard. You are already wondering if it's a good idea and you haven't been accepted yet. It seems like Harvard means more to you than the money. Fair enough. Law is filled with people chasing prestige, you are hardly alone.
You will find people on this forum who turned down scholarships for Harvard and regret it when they are in biglaw repaying 6 figures of debt.

I do wish you good luck.

Thank you, I actually really appreciate this feedback. I'm sorry if I came off as prestige obsessed.

Especially since you haven't been accepted to Harvard yet, you might be best off at this point just reading the many, many Darrow vs. Harvard threads from previous years. Once you have all your options in front of you, then come back here and ask for personalized advice.

[Li'l Sebastian]

Especially since you haven't been accepted to Harvard yet, you might be best off at this point just reading the many, many Darrow vs. Harvard threads from previous years. Once you have all your options in front of you, then come back here and ask for personalized advice.

You're right.
I'm sorry. It's just it's the only thing that's been really going through my mind the past two weeks. I mean it's like the rest of my life on the line, it's pretty nerve racking.

It was the V5 M&A and making partner ASAP. Plus clerkship.
That's all prestige stuff and no substance.
Like I said, you are far from alone in using prestige as a partial basis for decision making. Law is a status driven profession.

What would be something of substance, and what's the difference between status and prestige?
Sorry, I'm just trying to gobble up all the advice/information I can right meow. Particularly because of how ignorant I am of all these sorts of things other than what I've read from other TLS posters.

[northwood]

Assuming this is not a flame take the Darrow.

When you don't have to make any law school payments and you can pay off your undergrad loans quicker, you will be much happier even if you are in a V5 BigLAW firm.....

and if you don't get that (which is possible) or your goals change (another possibility) and you end up somewhere else, take your loan payment that you would be making and consider it as extra income ( because you keep it and don't put it to law school loans). Or you could simply put that money in a retirement/ investment account.

By the way you are right- once you start working, the only thing that matters is your work, not the name on your fancy degree. Additionally, some firms want to put law school awards/ honors on your bio. The Darrow is a great award to have on it)