Third Tier Law Schools in the Midwest Forum

[snappyfellow]

My end goal is to wind up practicing in a small to mid sized city somewhere in the upper midwest (Sioux Falls, Fargo, Boise). Is it smart to go to the local state school? I do have some family in the region, but I was raised and got my undergrad on the east coast, would hiring firms still favor locals over me once I graduate?

My GPA is pretty decent (3.7), but LSAT is only 153. Waiting to retake isn't an option. Idaho and West Virginia both bumped me down to instate tuition, Kansas accepted me but no scholarship, I haven't heard anything from the Dakotas. South Dakota's website says they make scholarship decisions in March and I'm assuming North Dakota might be the same. Any idea how hard it is to qualify for residency there or what my scholarship offers might look like?

Thanks for reading this, any advice would be appreciated. I'm starting to panic a bit as graduation looms and the deadline for seat deposits is seeming less and less faraway.

[sublime]

..

[snappyfellow]

My end goal is to practice in the local market.

[jrass]

Just choose the area you like the most that gives you the best aid package. The reputation of all these schools is fairly equal. There's a very high likelihood you will come out of any of these schools unemployed so it would be best to at least struggle in a city you like. None of these schools offer many options outside of the area they're located in. You also want to hedge your bet because the odds of graduating unemployed are likely over fifty percent at these schools, and the jobs grades out of these schools get wont realistically allow them to repay the loans. Essentially you need to be comfortable with having a lower take home pay than you would have now, and also be okay with the possibility of being unemployed for several years while looking for jobs.

[lawschoolftw]

My end goal is to wind up practicing in a small to mid sized city somewhere in the upper midwest (Sioux Falls, Fargo, Boise). Is it smart to go to the local state school? I do have some family in the region, but I was raised and got my undergrad on the east coast, would hiring firms still favor locals over me once I graduate?

My GPA is pretty decent (3.7), but LSAT is only 153. Waiting to retake isn't an option. Idaho and West Virginia both bumped me down to instate tuition, Kansas accepted me but no scholarship, I haven't heard anything from the Dakotas. South Dakota's website says they make scholarship decisions in March and I'm assuming North Dakota might be the same. Any idea how hard it is to qualify for residency there or what my scholarship offers might look like?

Thanks for reading this, any advice would be appreciated. I'm starting to panic a bit as graduation looms and the deadline for seat deposits is seeming less and less faraway.

how come?

[Clearly]

The suggestion is either go to a good school, or go to a bad school for cheap. You're not exempt from this advice, I'm down with wanting small law in the middle of nowhere, but you'd be a fool to take debt for that outcome. Don't go if it's not free. Retake.

[Big Red]

Waiting to retake isn't an option.

why?

[lawschoolftw]

Waiting to retake isn't an option.

why?

There's never really a good explanation as to why you can't retake. I'm a practicing lawyer, and I declined TLS's advice to retake. My situation ended up well, I went to a T20, got great grades, and landed a mid-law gig that pays market that I really love.

Here's the kicker. Because I didn't listen to TLS's advice and simply wait a year to get a better LSAT score, I HAVE A SHITTON OF DEBT. Every month I watch the money come out of my bank account I wish I could go back and slap my younger self in the face for feeling like I needed to immediately go to law school when there was absolutely no reason I couldn't have waited a year, scored a few extra points on my LSAT to get a scholarship and not find myself in this position.

The above is a best-case scenario. Had I gotten shitty grades, I could be unemployed staring down the barrel of six-figure debt with no way to pay it off (a situation that many of my friends who graduated from my T20 find themselves in)

For the love of all that is holy, re-take the damn test.

[snappyfellow]

Not going to wait around for a year to retake. Already taken it twice, did only marginally better the second time.

I'm curious, my numbers will put me above the 75th percentile for both of the Dakotas, any idea if that might translate into scholarship money? Looking at their aba disclosures, I don't' see anyone getting a full scholarship though.

[jrass]

Waiting to retake isn't an option.

why?

My guess would be that they're worried about leaving the school environment. The real world is much less structured and predictable than school is, and it can be scary to make that transition when you're a 22-year old kid. Post-college education provides a sense of stability, and a concrete plan. While the plan here is likelier to have a bad outcome with lifelong repercussions for OP, those repercussions won't happen for a few years and the front of the brain (the part we use to plan) is still developing into your mid-20's and different people mature at different stages. It's more difficult to see 10 years down the line when you're 20 than when you're 30. OP's refusal to create a better outcome for themselves will probably harm them for their entire life and he'll live the next 40 in despair, but it's not a crazy decision, just a poor one.

OP I'd just go where you will have fun. These 3 years may be the most enjoyable years you have so why not go somewhere where you can have a good time to make the most out of them?

[trebekismyhero]

Not going to wait around for a year to retake. Already taken it twice, did only marginally better the second time.

I'm curious, my numbers will put me above the 75th percentile for both of the Dakotas, any idea if that might translate into scholarship money? Looking at their aba disclosures, I don't' see anyone getting a full scholarship though.

Are you from the Dakotas? Are you ok working a small law job and making $40k in SD or ND? If so then going to either South Dakota or North Dakota is fine.

Don't go to these schools though if you don't have connections to the states. No idea about scholarships from those schools, go to http://mylsn.info/r/pre-law/admissions/search/

[timbs4339]

Waiting to retake isn't an option.

why?

My guess would be that they're worried about leaving the school environment. The real world is much less structured and predictable than school is, and it can be scary to make that transition when you're a 22-year old kid. Post-college education provides a sense of stability, and a concrete plan. While the plan here is likelier to have a bad outcome with lifelong repercussions for OP, those repercussions won't happen for a few years and the front of the brain (the part we use to plan) is still developing into your mid-20's and different people mature at different stages. It's more difficult to see 10 years down the line when you're 20 than when you're 30. OP's refusal to create a better outcome for themselves will probably harm them for their entire life and he'll live the next 40 in despair, but it's not a crazy decision, just a poor one.

OP I'd just go where you will have fun. These 3 years may be the most enjoyable years you have so why not go somewhere where you can have a good time to make the most out of them?

This - it's so easy and familiar to keep applying to school. You even feel like you're advancing in maturity level - suddenly you're taking on all this debt and making an investment in your life but without the confusion inherent in going out into the job market which is uncharted territory. And there's always hope that if you just try hard you can get top 5% and wind up with a sweet gig. And it's really going to suck to bum around for a year not making $weet lawyer cash.

The way I convinced myself was that by not going to law school, I'd miss out on a year of lawyer salary when I was 65 and in my prime. But now that I look back on things, there's a lot more to being able to enjoy your late 20s/early 30s without paying four figs a month to the DOE ON TOP of taxes.

Retake, OP. An extra 5-10 points will save you multiple years of pre-tax salary. Debt sucks.

[TheSpanishMain]

Waiting a year doesn't mean wasting a year. Do something productive and get some interesting experience on your resume

[BigZuck]

Waiting a year doesn't mean wasting a year. Do something productive and get some interesting experience on your resume

Or just have a lot of fun and enjoy your early 20s

[totesTheGoat]

Not going to wait around for a year to retake. Already taken it twice, did only marginally better the second time.

The test is very learnable. There are a thousand resources out here, and a ton are referenced here on TLS. You're wasting a perfectly good GPA by not shooting for at least a 160 LSAT. Read TLS and figure out how people got 7-10 point increases, and follow their methods.

I'm curious, my numbers will put me above the 75th percentile for both of the Dakotas, any idea if that might translate into scholarship money? Looking at their aba disclosures, I don't' see anyone getting a full scholarship though.

Possibly, but you're still going to come out with a lot of debt and not many options for paying it off.

Consider this a warning shot.... you need to do some serious research, thinking, and soul searching. Unless you like the idea of living off of less than $20k of income for each of the next 15 years, you're likely to be sorely disappointed with your results. Even with PAYE, you're going to have little more than $20k take home after taxes and student loans.

Here's some data:
Kansas - 32% chance of not having a legal job when you graduate, 18% chance of having a job making $59k or more.
WVU - 42% chance of not having a legal job when you graduate, 29% chance of having a job making $55k or more.
Idaho - 32% chance of not having a legal job when you graduate, 18% chance of having a job making $52k or more.
N.D. - 41% chance of not having a legal job when you graduate, 29% chance of having a job making $55k or more.
S.D. - 33% chance of not having a legal job when you graduate, and they don't release their salary data.

Flip a coin 5 times. If you get at least 2 heads, you get a legal job. If you get all 5 heads, you get a job making at or above the national average household income, and this is after spending 3 years working your ass off in class and spending ~$100k on cost of attendance (assuming you get a significant scholarship).

Retake the damn test! You have the GPA to get into a T1 school with significant money! Go spend 3-6 months learning the LSAT and practicing the hell out of it, get a 163, and go to a school where you have a more than a coin flip's chance of getting a job. Then, with your shiny new T1 diploma and reasonable amount of debt, you can dictate terms when you go back to Sioux Falls and offer your services to a law firm.

[star fox]

The most egregious part of this OP is the states you are listing as Midwest.

[A@M_or_bust]

Waiting to retake isn't an option.

Yes it is.

[eagle2a]

Either retake and do better or don't go to law school

[cub1014]

Since when are Idaho and West Virginia part of the Midwest? I've seen varying definitions but never those two states lol.