Law School Decision Forum

[machinebreakfast]

Hello,

A bit about me, I have middle of the road GPA and LSAT and I am currently active duty. I am currently intending to go to Law School in the Fall of 2016, as that is when I discharge from the military. I currently have acceptance to several Top 100 schools and I am trying to decide on which to go with, but I am becoming disheartened the more I read these forums in that it seems there is no point in attending a school if it is not T14 or you want to work in that state/region. Is this really that accurate? If so is it due to lack of other work experiences or do most law firms or hiring bodies not care about other work experience? If not, do other language fluencies help in the job hunting process? I am proficient in Mandarin and may pick another language up before I graduate, whether through classes or a MA in addition to my JD in East Asian Studies or language, and was curious if that was worth it? Would the dual degree be worth it? The majority of my tuition is covered by the Post 9/11 and Yellow Ribbon programs at the schools I have applied to so it would not be too hard for me to get a loan for another year or couple of semesters if I go over Summer. Further is it worth it to get a joint degree at all or would I be better in picking one up from an unrelated field than my language skillset?

Sorry for the rambling and length. Thank you for your answer

TL;DR - Not T14 that crippling for career? Mandarin Chinese offset lower ranked schools? Joint Degree in language, nother field or none at all?

[danielneuman613]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as admissions, so I won't pretend to know everything... With that said, be aware this forum is infamous for it's "T14 or bust" ideology and is obviously simply not true. If that were true, there wouldn't be the amount of lawyers today, making substantial livings.

As far as I understand, there is an idea that you go to the law school where you want to practice. I wouldn't suggest going to something like a 55 ranked school in Florida only to want to practice in California. You put yourself at a serious disadvantage. Usually the thing about the top 20, is that these school are more capable of moving around due to their prestige and alumni being more spread out.

Now with that said, there are obviously a lot of things that go into employment decisions. Obviously try to aim for the highest employment odds, by going to the proper school and such, but class rank is also a huge indicator. There are plenty of people who went to T2's that weren't ranked very well, but the student's class rank/internships and extra-curriculars were fantastic and they do very well for themselves. Additionally, knowing Mandarin is pretty useful in certain cases and service in the military has been known to improve odds every so often.

The point is, don't go based just off this forum. Check up the statistics for the schools you want to attend, and find some stories/alumni who have gone. I'm currently deciding upon some T2 schools myself, while waiting for a couple of T1 schools to get back to me, but there's definitely no need to be disheartened. If you do well and make good connections in the place you want to practice, there is plenty of chances to succeed. Just my thoughts. Good luck on everything

Daniel

[TheSpanishMain]

Please link to some recent "T14 or bust" posts

[nick417]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as admissions, so I won't pretend to know everything... With that said, be aware this forum is infamous for it's "T14 or bust" ideology and is obviously simply not true. If that were true, there wouldn't be the amount of lawyers today, making substantial livings.

As far as I understand, there is an idea that you go to the law school where you want to practice. I wouldn't suggest going to something like a 55 ranked school in Florida only to want to practice in California. You put yourself at a serious disadvantage. Usually the thing about the top 20, is that these school are more capable of moving around due to their prestige and alumni being more spread out.

Now with that said, there are obviously a lot of things that go into employment decisions. Obviously try to aim for the highest employment odds, by going to the proper school and such, but class rank is also a huge indicator. There are plenty of people who went to T2's that weren't ranked very well, but the student's class rank/internships and extra-curriculars were fantastic and they do very well for themselves. Additionally, knowing Mandarin is pretty useful in certain cases and service in the military has been known to improve odds every so often.

The point is, don't go based just off this forum. Check up the statistics for the schools you want to attend, and find some stories/alumni who have gone. I'm currently deciding upon some T2 schools myself, while waiting for a couple of T1 schools to get back to me, but there's definitely no need to be disheartened. If you do well and make good connections in the place you want to practice, there is plenty of chances to succeed. Just my thoughts. Good luck on everything

Daniel

These forums are "infamous for it's T14 or bust" because it is the best advice. It is so much more difficult to find employment when you attend schools outside of the top few. I go to a tier 2 school, the people at the top of my class (top 15-20%) are fine. We either have jobs lined up or have secured prestigious clerkships. The problem is everyone else. Most have lower level clerkships (state trial level) or no job at all lined up. (NOTE: My school promotes clerkships as good jobs even though they are for one year, and they either don't keep stats or don't tell us how many of those students find second jobs and what those jobs are and how much they pay. Accordingly, 9 months after graduation job stats are not always accurate because they include one year clerkships). Everyone goes into law school thinking they will be in the top 15-20% of their class, but not everyone can. It is difficult from the outset to know where you fall or how well you will do in law school.

The point of these forums that rip T2 schools is that everyone should know what they are getting into. The job market is still not very good. Law schools still charge a lot of $$$. Students continue to take out loans to get a degree that has a 50/50 shot of paying off. The risks are there and they are real. It isn't all gumdrops and rainbows. IF you go to a T2 school, you have to work your ass off to get to and stay at the top of the class.

As a 3L about to finish at a T2 school, my advice, don't go to a T2 school. The only possible way I would suggest it is if you have (1) ties to the area where the school is located, (2) have a full scholarship, (3) know what lawyers do (most people either don't or want to be civil rights lawyers), and (4) are 100% positive you want to be a lawyer. If you can check each box, then a T2 school can serve its purpose.

[Tls2016]

Hello,

A bit about me, I have middle of the road GPA and LSAT and I am currently active duty. I am currently intending to go to Law School in the Fall of 2016, as that is when I discharge from the military. I currently have acceptance to several Top 100 schools and I am trying to decide on which to go with, but I am becoming disheartened the more I read these forums in that it seems there is no point in attending a school if it is not T14 or you want to work in that state/region. Is this really that accurate? If so is it due to lack of other work experiences or do most law firms or hiring bodies not care about other work experience? If not, do other language fluencies help in the job hunting process? I am proficient in Mandarin and may pick another language up before I graduate, whether through classes or a MA in addition to my JD in East Asian Studies or language, and was curious if that was worth it? Would the dual degree be worth it? The majority of my tuition is covered by the Post 9/11 and Yellow Ribbon programs at the schools I have applied to so it would not be too hard for me to get a loan for another year or couple of semesters if I go over Summer. Further is it worth it to get a joint degree at all or would I be better in picking one up from an unrelated field than my language skillset?

Sorry for the rambling and length. Thank you for your answer

TL;DR - Not T14 that crippling for career? Mandarin Chinese offset lower ranked schools? Joint Degree in language, nother field or none at all?

What are your numbers?
Where and when did you apply?
What are your goals?

If your goal is biglaw, you have a better shot at it from
a T14. Language fluency would not overcome a bad school. If your goal is immigration or maybe some state or federal jobs, fluency might be a plus. (But realize that immigration isn't going to pay much.)

A main reason for the emphasis on T14 or going to school where you want to practice is to maximize your chances at a job that is worth the cost of attendance.

[Tls2016]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as admissions, so I won't pretend to know everything... With that said, be aware this forum is infamous for it's "T14 or bust" ideology and is obviously simply not true. If that were true, there wouldn't be the amount of lawyers today, making substantial livings.

As far as I understand, there is an idea that you go to the law school where you want to practice. I wouldn't suggest going to something like a 55 ranked school in Florida only to want to practice in California. You put yourself at a serious disadvantage. Usually the thing about the top 20, is that these school are more capable of moving around due to their prestige and alumni being more spread out.

Now with that said, there are obviously a lot of things that go into employment decisions. Obviously try to aim for the highest employment odds, by going to the proper school and such, but class rank is also a huge indicator. There are plenty of people who went to T2's that weren't ranked very well, but the student's class rank/internships and extra-curriculars were fantastic and they do very well for themselves. Additionally, knowing Mandarin is pretty useful in certain cases and service in the military has been known to improve odds every so often.

The point is, don't go based just off this forum. Check up the statistics for the schools you want to attend, and find some stories/alumni who have gone. I'm currently deciding upon some T2 schools myself, while waiting for a couple of T1 schools to get back to me, but there's definitely no need to be disheartened. If you do well and make good connections in the place you want to practice, there is plenty of chances to succeed. Just my thoughts. Good luck on everything

Daniel

You realize only 10% of the class is going to "do well."

[TheSpanishMain]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as admissions, so I won't pretend to know everything... With that said, be aware this forum is infamous for it's "T14 or bust" ideology and is obviously simply not true.

Virtually no one says "T14 or bust." Maybe eight years ago, but that hasn't been the TLS consensus wisdom for a long, long time.

If that were true, there wouldn't be the amount of lawyers today, making substantial livings.

What does this even mean? That there are lawyers from low ranked schools doing well? Of course there are. There are also a lot struggling to keep the lights on. What is your point? We're talking about general trends here.

OP, what is it you actually want to do with your degree? If you want to work at a small firm in your hometown, then going to the local school for free is probably fine. Go to the best school in the area you want to practice. The difference between the 81st ranked school and the 95th ranked school is pretty much nonexistent. It's going to be more about local name recognition, the alumni network, and the perception of you as a local/outsider. On the other hand, if you want to work with large corporations doing business in East Asia, then you probably want BigLaw, which means you'll want to go to a T14.

Finally, you have a golden ticket with the GI Bill. You should probably retake the LSAT and use it on a school that gives you the best chances of achieving your goals.

[danielneuman613]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as admissions, so I won't pretend to know everything... With that said, be aware this forum is infamous for it's "T14 or bust" ideology and is obviously simply not true.

Virtually no one says "T14 or bust." Maybe eight years ago, but that hasn't been the TLS consensus wisdom for a long, long time.

If that were true, there wouldn't be the amount of lawyers today, making substantial livings.

What does this even mean? That there are lawyers from low ranked schools doing well? Of course there are. There are also a lot struggling to keep the lights on. What is your point? We're talking about general trends here.

OP, what is it you actually want to do with your degree? If you want to work at a small firm in your hometown, then going to the local school for free is probably fine. Go to the best school in the area you want to practice. The difference between the 81st ranked school and the 95th ranked school is pretty much nonexistent. If you want to work with large corporations doing business in East Asia, then you probably want BigLaw, which means you'll want to go to a T14.

Finally, you have a golden ticket with the GI Bill. You should probably retake the LSAT and use it on a school that gives you the best chances of achieving your goals.

Interesting you say that, yet literally the second response to my original post started with "These forums are infamous for it's T14 or bust because..." Plus the person asking the question has written about his own concerns regarding this top law school or bust mentality on this forums, plus my own extensive realization with PLENTY of posts, which emphasize constantly LSAT scores in the mid 160's, necessity of top law schools, etc... To outright declare that it simply doesn't exist in is absolutely ridiculous, when you have three people on this post alone that acknowledge this forum does have a bit of an obsession with the T14/T20. The poster himself is posting about this very issue from what he's read on the forum so far, and you're just DISMISSING it? I see you have extensive experience on this forum, and don't doubt that you very likely know much more than me on these topics, but come on... Do you speak for the hundreds of people answering questions on here?

Instead of getting harsh, how about you look at the value in my post. I acknowledge that it is hard out there for T2 students, but that's it's not at all impossible, nor even improbable, which was the main concern of his question. I know plenty of current lawyers who have gone to T2 schools, each with their own stories about success. Obviously there are also stories of failure. But my post mentions importance of class rank, internships, as well as going to LS in the area you plan on living/practicing. He's not an idiot. Half of these responses are talking about value/finance, yet he has explained that much of his tuition will be covered by various scholarships, which puts him in an enviable position as far as possibilities.

Yes, if you rank 50 in your class and are mediocre, and are not proactive in searching for internships, as I mention, you can find it hard to get a job. Hence, the reason I listed the many criteria necessary to put yourself in the best position to succeed in a T2 school. You bring up a great point about goals, and I'm sure that will be helpful in his decision about what to do as far as lsat score/Law school choices.

Cheers.
Daniel

[TheSpanishMain]

I don't dispute that there is a perception that TLS is obsessed with the T14. I just think it's outdated.

The only times I've seen people tell a poster that they absolutely have to go to YHS/T6/T14 is when they have goals that require (or at least are dramatically more likely with) that kind of pedigree: legal academia, BigLaw, etc. I've yet to see someone with more modest goals, for example, someone who wants to be a prosecutor in their hometown, be told by the TLS hivemind that they should go to a T14 just because, especially if the alternative is a big scholarship at the local school. I'm happy to change my mind if you can provide some examples.

And yes, as I said, some students from lower ranked schools will do well: people in the top of their class, people with particularly impressive work experience, etc. But why would you bank everything on being in the top 10% of the class, especially when the alternative is to retake a learnable standardized test? Why would you focus on the exceptions?

Finally, you're correct, people are missing the fact that OP is a GI Bill eligible veteran, which makes scholarships a non-factor. If OP clarifies that he wants to do local immigration work and is fine with a relatively low starting salary, I don't think too many people are going to give him grief if he goes to the local school for free.

Also, there's no need to sign your posts.

[A. Nony Mouse]

People emphasize the importance of LSAT above 160 here (well above) because it is the easiest way to significantly reduce the cost of law school and open more doors for applicants. The mantra here is "retake for a school with better employment opportunities," not "T14 or bust." However, many people who show up here asking about lower tier schools get told to retake and interpret that advice incorrectly as "T14 or bust" when it's not.

(I didn't go to a T14; but I do wish I'd paid less for the school I went to.)

It's not impossible for people at a T2 to get a job. The question is whether it will be a job that 1) the person wants and 2) can provide enough income to pay back loans. If the T2 is in the OP's target market, they can get a full ride, and they want something like small firm/local govt/PD/ADA, go for it. If someone wants big law, or a job outside the T2's market, or is going to pay sticker, a T2 is probably not a great option (I realize money isn't an issue for this OP, that's just a general statement).

[CTT]

Several thoughts:

1) Going to a lower tier law school is more likely to work out well if you have experience (check), will avoid debt (check), think that working at a small firm with geographic proximity to the law school you choose constitutes working out well (?).
2) There are 14 national law schools. Sure, some students who go to UCLA end up in NYC immediately after graduation, but it's absolutely true that with the exception of truly outstanding students, the doors of the nations' top law firms are closed to those who did not attend a T14 school. My V10 firm had about 120 summers in the U.S. One was from U of Minn., one from a historically black law school, two were from Ohio State, one was from Wash U, one from GW, seven were from local New York City law schools. The other ~107 were all T14. That's why people on here say T14 or bust if your desires center on national caliber firms. It's a lot easier to be 95th in your class as Cornell than 1st in your class at Northeastern U Law School.
3) Raising your LSAT score 5 or 10 points is likely to require less work than finishing at the top of the class at a T2 law school.
4) It's not clear to me that going to a T2 law school leads where you would like it to. Sure, you could do immigration work or end up working for some local government, but do you need a law degree for that? Is it worth the three (or in your case possibly four) years?

[BigZuck]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as admissions, so I won't pretend to know everything... With that said, be aware this forum is infamous for it's "T14 or bust" ideology and is obviously simply not true.

Virtually no one says "T14 or bust." Maybe eight years ago, but that hasn't been the TLS consensus wisdom for a long, long time.

If that were true, there wouldn't be the amount of lawyers today, making substantial livings.

What does this even mean? That there are lawyers from low ranked schools doing well? Of course there are. There are also a lot struggling to keep the lights on. What is your point? We're talking about general trends here.

OP, what is it you actually want to do with your degree? If you want to work at a small firm in your hometown, then going to the local school for free is probably fine. Go to the best school in the area you want to practice. The difference between the 81st ranked school and the 95th ranked school is pretty much nonexistent. If you want to work with large corporations doing business in East Asia, then you probably want BigLaw, which means you'll want to go to a T14.

Finally, you have a golden ticket with the GI Bill. You should probably retake the LSAT and use it on a school that gives you the best chances of achieving your goals.

Interesting you say that, yet literally the second response to my original post started with "These forums are infamous for it's T14 or bust because..." Plus the person asking the question has written about his own concerns regarding this top law school or bust mentality on this forums, plus my own extensive realization with PLENTY of posts, which emphasize constantly LSAT scores in the mid 160's, necessity of top law schools, etc... To outright declare that it simply doesn't exist in is absolutely ridiculous, when you have three people on this post alone that acknowledge this forum does have a bit of an obsession with the T14/T20. The poster himself is posting about this very issue from what he's read on the forum so far, and you're just DISMISSING it? I see you have extensive experience on this forum, and don't doubt that you very likely know much more than me on these topics, but come on... Do you speak for the hundreds of people answering questions on here?

Instead of getting harsh, how about you look at the value in my post. I acknowledge that it is hard out there for T2 students, but that's it's not at all impossible, nor even improbable, which was the main concern of his question. I know plenty of current lawyers who have gone to T2 schools, each with their own stories about success. Obviously there are also stories of failure. But my post mentions importance of class rank, internships, as well as going to LS in the area you plan on living/practicing. He's not an idiot. Half of these responses are talking about value/finance, yet he has explained that much of his tuition will be covered by various scholarships, which puts him in an enviable position as far as possibilities.

Yes, if you rank 50 in your class and are mediocre, and are not proactive in searching for internships, as I mention, you can find it hard to get a job. Hence, the reason I listed the many criteria necessary to put yourself in the best position to succeed in a T2 school. You bring up a great point about goals, and I'm sure that will be helpful in his decision about what to do as far as lsat score/Law school choices.

Cheers.
Daniel

The only people who say "T14 or bust" are butthurt "Not gonna!" Retakers who get told that they shouldn't go to American at sticker. No one giving advice says T14 or bust. What you're complaining about literally does not exist. There is an obsession with getting people the job they want, where they want it, and at an appropriate cost. There's no obsession with the T14, outside of people's obsessions with getting jobs that necessitate going to a T14.

[gnomgnomuch]

I don't dispute that there is a perception that TLS is obsessed with the T14. I just think it's outdated.

The only times I've seen people tell a poster that they absolutely have to go to YHS/T6/T14 is when they have goals that require (or at least are dramatically more likely with) that kind of pedigree: legal academia, BigLaw, etc. I've yet to see someone with more modest goals, for example, someone who wants to be a prosecutor in their hometown, be told by the TLS hivemind that they should go to a T14 just because, especially if the alternative is a big scholarship at the local school. I'm happy to change my mind if you can provide some examples.

And yes, as I said, some students from lower ranked schools will do well: people in the top of their class, people with particularly impressive work experience, etc. But why would you bank everything on being in the top 10% of the class, especially when the alternative is to retake a learnable standardized test? Why would you focus on the exceptions?

Finally, you're correct, people are missing the fact that OP is a GI Bill eligible veteran, which makes scholarships a non-factor. If OP clarifies that he wants to do local immigration work and is fine with a relatively low starting salary, I don't think too many people are going to give him grief if he goes to the local school for free.

Also, there's no need to sign your posts.

From my understanding, if you want to be a law prof, you absolutely SHOULD go to the best school you can get.

If I'm wrong, someone call me out on that, but I think I read a few posts on here a while back that basically said if you want to get into academia, Y is by far the standard, and then it's something like Harvard/Chicago/Stanford.

[Tiago Splitter]

From my understanding, if you want to be a law prof, you absolutely SHOULD go to the best school you can get.

If I'm wrong, someone call me out on that, but I think I read a few posts on here a while back that basically said if you want to get into academia, Y is by far the standard, and then it's something like Harvard/Chicago/Stanford.

The second part is true but outside of that very limited set of schools academia is such a longshot that it's not worth factoring into the the decision.