Harvard v. Berkeley for PI Forum

[wellreallynow]

Hi everyone, I'm hoping for some insight from this thread. I've been accepted at both Harvard and Berkeley and I'm really torn on how to make this decision. I don't have financial aid information yet, but I'm not expecting major financial aid from either-- my parents are very well off and don't plan on contributing to paying for law school, so wherever I go, I expect to be paying close to sticker and mostly financing it with loans.

I'm very committed to working in PI-- I've worked for close to four years in non-profits and legal advocacy, and I'm currently working at the ACLU on a team I'd be thrilled to join after graduating-- and I expect to rely heavily on LRAP and/or PSLF at whatever school I end up with.

Here's the main thing. I have really good personal reasons to go to Berkeley. I lived in the Bay Area for a while as a kid and I love it here. My long-term boyfriend is a medical student in the area. And more importantly, from what I know of Berkeley through visits and talking to former alums, it seems like the best fit for me personality-wise. As dumb as it sounds, instinctively, it seems like the law school I'd be happiest at.

That being said, it's Harvard Law. I know particularly in PI, the name will open a lot of doors, especially with international work. And it's really appealing to go to a school whose LRAP isn't tied to the federal program, in the event that Republicans eventually defund PSLF or whatever. But it means being long-distance, living through Boston winters, and from what I read in Scott Turow's book, a pretty hellish atmosphere.

My numbers-- 171 and 3.7. I'm pretty sure I won't be qualifying for merit-based aid with that.

I'd love some advice or insight on this. Do I turn down the more prestigious program for probably higher personal happiness? Will I regret turning down Harvard ten years from now if Berkeley falls out of the T-14 in a few years? Any wisdom would be very much appreciated.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Go to Harvard, then transfer to Stanford after one year.

If I were you, I wouldn't be going to law school if I had to pay for it myself (a lot of non profit kids have parents funding 100% and a parents subsidizing their rent, etc.). But the second choice would be Harvard in this scenario.

And in all seriousness - are you okay being broke forever? Most non profit attorneys make shit money. The difference is that many of them have no loans since parents subsidize their rent, paying tuition, etc. If you have loans on top of that, you will be broke forever.

[twenty]

You wouldn't be wrong to pick Berkeley, but if you want ACLU or something like it, you should pick Harvard.

[Nathanael]

I'm a 1L at HLS and just wanted to clarify that the atmosphere is absolutely nothing like it was in the 70s when Turow attended.

Also, the kind of PI you're talking about is incredibly competitive and if you're absolutely committed to that path you should come to Harvard. PSLF alone makes it the right choice if your only other option is Berkeley at sticker.

[wellreallynow]

Go to Harvard, then transfer to Stanford after one year.

If I were you, I wouldn't be going to law school if I had to pay for it myself (a lot of non profit kids have parents funding 100% and a parents subsidizing their rent, etc.). But the second choice would be Harvard in this scenario.

And in all seriousness - are you okay being broke forever? Most non profit attorneys make shit money. The difference is that many of them have no loans since parents subsidize their rent, paying tuition, etc. If you have loans on top of that, you will be broke forever.

I really appreciate all these responses. Yeah I'm really hoping Stanford comes through, that would solve a lot of problems here. And no, I'm not necessarily okay being broke forever, but I'm really set on what I want to do-- civil rights work in a specific field-- and without a law degree, there's very little I can do beyond my current job or one like it somewhere else.Which is also why PSLF/LRAP at whatever school I end up going to is going to be a huge consideration, and for that alone, Harvard wins out. That being said, my current partner is in school to become a surgeon, so at least he'll be making bank in a decade or so (and he has no loans), so as long as we stay together (which is a pretty big if, if I wind up on the East Coast) i'm not necessarily super worried about being broke forever.

[pterodactyls]

Harvard's LRAP provides much more flexibility than Berkeley's. For Berkeley, you must register into PSLF and work 10 years in the public sector to receive most of the benefit. And if you leave after 8 or 9 years, you're gonna be SOL with a huge bill. Harvard actually pays 1/10th of your student loans each year, so you can work in the private sector for a year or two if it makes sense. However if you were guaranteed to work 10 years in the public sector in a PSLF-eligible job, the Berkeley program is great - you could end up paying back $0 in student loans... but that's a big "if."

Keep in mind, most LRAP programs account for your spouses's income as well, if it is higher than yours. So, if you marry the surgeon, you may end up paying back more than you thought.

Though Berkeley is a great school, I think Harvard looks like the better career option, all else equal. In the end, only you can decide the tradeoff of the extra benefit vs. being with your partner.

[jbagelboy]

Do you have any merit aid at Berkeley's peers, e.g. penn, uva, duke, michigan? This would give you a sense of what kind of matching you might expect from them.

I was incredibly impressed as an 0L by Berkeley's PI commitment and programs. However, after several years of law school, I must admit that these employers aren't like big firms, which would recruit a lot at both schools. You need all the resources you can access, and Harvard will offer more on that score. Berkeley might be the best choice if you were committed to working in California, but if you are thinking about impact litigation around the country, HLS has broader connections in other cities and with other agencies and employers. I wouldn't go to any law school at sticker cost, but if the price difference between Berkeley and HLS isn't substantial, Harvard is probably the better play. (Don't pay too much attention to the rankings, though--T14 and all that is just advertising. Look at the people in the jobs you want and see how they got there, and talk to students about the resources they have).

[rpupkin]

Do you have any merit aid at Berkeley's peers, e.g. penn, uva, duke, michigan? This would give you a sense of what kind of matching you might expect from them.

I was incredibly impressed as an 0L by Berkeley's PI commitment and programs. However, after several years of law school, I must admit that these employers aren't like big firms, which would recruit a lot at both schools. You need all the resources you can access, and Harvard will offer more on that score. Berkeley might be the best choice if you were committed to working in California, but if you are thinking about impact litigation around the country, HLS has broader connections in other cities and with other agencies and employers. I wouldn't go to any law school at sticker cost, but if the price difference between Berkeley and HLS isn't substantial, Harvard is probably the better play. (Don't pay too much attention to the rankings, though--T14 and all that is just advertising. Look at the people in the jobs you want and see how they got there, and talk to students about the resources they have).

Excellent post.

If OP and long-term bf are planning to stay in California, then Berkeley is fine. But if OP is unsure about where she and her b fwill end up after law school/med school, HLS will likely open up at least a few more doors nationally.

Having said that, long-distance relationships suck. And it's not like OP is choosing between Harvard and Hastings. There's nothing wrong with choosing a slightly less good law school because you'd rather not spend three years apart from a SO.

[ub3r]

Having said that, long-distance relationships suck. And it's not like OP is choosing between Harvard and Hastings. There's nothing wrong with choosing a slightly less good law school because you'd rather not spend three years apart from a SO.

Not that others can't give the same info I'm about to give, but as someone who is a 1L SoCal with a significant other stuck in NorCal, even after one semester apart it's taxing. And I can still do drives up and down the state, and flights are relatively cheap. Being the entire length of the country apart, having different time zones, etc., will not be easy. Not that you can't do it, or that proximity to your SO is the most important consideration to factor in, but definitely make sure you're both on board.

[oliverotis]

I think even if you're committed to California, the "rational" choice would be HLS unless you get a solid matching scholarship from Berkeley. HLS LIPP is much, much better than Berkeley's LRAP. Also, HLS will have more resources for summer and post-grad PI funding.

If you can get a matching scholarship from Berkeley and especially if you want to be in California, it sounds like Berkeley would be the better choice for you. Berkeley will place very well in PI in the Bay Area, probably as good if not better than HLS.

Good luck, and congrats! Awesome problem to have.