Is Fordham a Good Idea? Forum

[tigaru]

Hey guys,

So I have been lurking on this site since I graduated college in 2011 so perhaps this post is way past due. Long story short, I have put off law school for some time now mostly because of personal reasons, and partially because I could not justify attending at sticker thanks to the posts and advice i have soaked up on this forum. I have taken the lsat a few times in fact and last score was 162 from december 2014, my gpa is 3.5. I retook the test again in december 2015 and ended up with a 161, to my disbelief. I have been accepted at Fordham with $10,000 scholarship but my parents will be footing the bill for law school. I am also planning to live with them on Long Island and not waste money on COL in the city. So my question is, should I go to Fordham?

I have taken the lsat so many times and already remember most of the prep questions by heart. At the same time I know that if I could get into Cornell, which my parents would still pay for, though maybe not for the COL, it would completely change the game in terms of career prospects. I am not big law or bust, but big law is something that I would really want. I am already 27 so the thought of potentially postponing law school for yet another year isn't all fun, especially knowing that my parents would hate the idea. So what do I do? I would really really appreciate some feedback from you guys because I am completely lost. I don't want to complain because i am very fortunate to have someone foot the bill for me, but the thought of a higher ranking school acceptance is driving me crazy, though i don't even know if i can improve my lsat score.

During my prep I have been getting 167 on average, but like i said earlier i was very familiar with the questions already, so my confidence on these prep tests was high. However, after seeing my score drop to 161 after significant amount of prep work really shuts off my confidence not only for another retake but for law school in general. Anyway I apologize for such a long rant, this turned into a diary posting at this point. But like i said i am in need of some vise advice. Thanks so much to all of you in advance. If I left something out that may be of importance in helping you with the advice, please do not hesitate to ask.

[03152016]

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[tigaru]

Hi Brut,

I was actually hoping that you would be the first one to reply to my post. I have been on this site all day today mainly focusing on your posts. I find them very insightful and forward thinking, so getting a response from you is an honor my friend.

I have no idea what happened. My performance on RC and LR was average or slightly below average when compared to my prep tests, but i completely screwed up the LG section. This used to be my strongest section and about a yr or two ago i would be -0 on it. These past few exams however, i find the games a lot trickier for some reason and during the lsat i completely bombed it and got -8, something unheard of for me. But had i gotten a -0 on the games my score would've been a 167. I can't retake in february because I've reached a limit of 3 tests within 2 yrs, so the earliest date I can take it again is June. Which is why if i retake the test again i will have to sit out another year. I have actually applied to fordham last year and asked for a deferral. So if i don't go in the fall I will lose that as well and would have to reapply the following year, obviously without knowing what my next score will be (but my latest score is 161 which is lower than the 162 that i applied to fordham with).

If i struck out i am not too sure what i would be happy with. My areas of interest have been pretty scattered, i was considering corporate, family law, real estate and even entertainment law, though i know for entertainment law i would probably need to land big law first. The plan was to see what strikes my interest the most and stick with that, perhaps a bit naive who knows. But if you were referring to the size of the firm i would want to work in, something at least midsize in nyc.

At the moment though i honestly am not passionate about any of these areas because studying for the lsat all these yrs has beat it out of me. Perhaps studying in law school would spark my drive again, at least i hope it does. For this reason I made a post here, i wanted to make sure that the decision i ultimately made would not hinder my confidence when starting school. Doubting oneself before embarking in the insanity of law school is not the wisest thing to do. I am sure you would share this sentiment as well.

[Tiago Splitter]

I sat out for a year when I was 27. I know it sounds tough now, but I promise you it's the right decision. You only go to law school once, so if you do decide to go do it right the first time.

You just can't go to law school when you're -8 on the logic games. It's way too easy to improve on those things to give up that easily.

[sublime]

..

[Nomo]

Don't leave 5 lsat points on the table. Those points represent either a lot of opportunities or a lot of money (even if it's your parents money)/

[tigaru]

"Tiago Splitter" deep inside i know your advice is the right one, as much as it breaks my heart to admit it. I just have the fear of fucking up on the retake again, at which point I would've wasted yet another year and lost the fordham admission and the $10,000 scholarship, which isn't much but its still decent for my numbers i suppose. Like i said my prep tests were all pretty high this time around and i had really high hopes for the december retake, and yet i ended up with a 161. What if it happens again and I have nothing to show for it? Just too many things to think about and thankfully i still have some time to think things through but i appreciate your response very much.

"Sublime" not sure if you caught the part about my parents paying off my tuition. I would under no circumstances consider attending fordham or any law school below the t14 with a $10,000 scholarship alone.

[03152016]

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[BigZuck]

Why do you want to be a lawyer? Why do you want big law? You say if you don't get big law, then you want mid law- are you just chasing rings and hoping to snag the biggest one?

I think if you don't really know what you want to do and have vague, big law desires (which is kind of the sense I'm getting) and you're dead set on still going to law school then you need to go to the best school you can (at a reasonable price of course but with rich parents that doesn't apply here I guess). Bare minimum I think you should go to is Cornell.

[BigZuck]

i think u should deposit at fordham and immediately begin preparing hard for a june retake
if u get to the 167ish range in june, withdraw from fordham, eat the deposit, and spend the rest of the summer perfecting your apps, send them out as soon as apps open in september
if u end up in basically the same place after june, you'll have to make a very hard decision about whether to proceed w/ law school. u should proceed only if u have clear eyes about fordham's placement ability and still wish to attend, even knowing that u will probably not obtain a biglaw position.

don't worry about making the hard decisions right now. right now your only focus should be on keeping your options open
with this plan, u won't lose your fordham acceptance (i sense u may have some concern about being accepted in future cycles), but u still get another crack at the lsat and schools with far better placement (at 167, your pt average, lower t14 and schools like UT and vandy should be in play, which are all no brainers over fordham for biglaw, considering your parents are footing the bill)

sounds like you've been prepping for 2 years now
u have 5 months until the june test. that should be more than enough time to max out your score, given your previous prep
if u haven't been using the guides in the lsat prep forum, go do that. if u have and are still struggling, try to find an experienced tutor with a top lsat score

I basically agree with this, especially the deposit and retake June scenario. I did that myself and it worked out well.

I'll quibble with the UT and Vandy thing- I don't think they should necessarily be targets, if the OP wants NYC big law then at UT at least they likely would have to be toward the top of the class. Only people I know going into NYC big law are law review/top 15% types. Would probably need to finish just about as high at Fordham as well of course, but you save the headache of moving halfway across the country, waiting another year, and (potentially) having to answer questions about why you didn't stay local for law school.

IMO

[03152016]

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[tigaru]

Zuck I wanted to be a lawyer most of my life and it was because i loved the law, and found it quite fascinating. However that passion really dwindled over the past few yrs while i was prepping for the lsat. Couple of yrs ago thanks to this site i stepped back from attending at sticker because i haven't done my research up to that point and it was actually the worst time too in terms of the recession and the state of the legal market. So i held off school and decided to prep more, again thanks to this site and people like you guys. Why do i want big law? I will not bullshit here and say that money is a big motivator, though it all depends on my grades and the level of interest i display. I am also aware that the chances are i would more than likely hate every second of these "coveted" big law gigs, but i believe that experience would be valuable regardless of whether i chose to stay or leave.

Brut i will absolutely take your advice and start prepping for the June test, somehow i haven't even thought of that option, probably because i was too crushed from my lsat score. Fordham already has my deposit, like i said i applied last yr and got in, so i gave them the deposit to hold my seat until fall 2016. But going with the plan you pointed out would certainly help me keep my options open until i get my June score back.

I have used some of the guides from the prep forum, but i have 2 questions for you:

1- do you think the tutor would help with the games section in particular? I have a strong base already laid out for the games since i am -0 on about 95% of them. But i think the reason i find the newer tests challenging is because they probably require more inferences upfront. When i redo the last few exams, i go -0 on them. But on test day i probably screw up because its a game i haven't seen before and that probably tends to mess with my mind, since my preexisting notions of the complexity of these recent games don't make things easier for me mentally. So given these facts I'm not sure how much a tutor could actually do for me.
2- I think it was you, and forgive me if i am wrong, who said that you would not take fordham even for free. If this was in fact you, can you elaborate on why? I just want to keep these things in mind if come June or July and i am faced with the decision to go to fordham or not go at all.

[tigaru]

And Zuck i forgot to thank you as well my friend, i do trust your advice and also believe that for big law Cornell is really the minimum i should aim for. I honestly just wasn't sure what doors a JD from Fordham would open if one was to strike out at OCI

[Clearly]

drop a couple hundred on Velocity LSAT's LG course and see if you can't adapt to newer games with a different approach. I was solid at the other sections but terrible at games even after self-studying and a course. Within a few weeks I was -0. I agree that a retake is the play here.

[03152016]

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[tigaru]

Thanks for that honest reply Brut I will get started with the prep again asap. I have gone through all the games at least a few times already but will do it again. One option i haven't considered, which i am glad you pointed out, is to go through the third party games like manhattan and lsatblog. You mentioned going through around 300 third party games and i doubt you got all those from the two i mentioned above. I looked to buy some games from other companies but can't seem to find anything, they are all tutorial books it seems. Brut if you can throw some links my way of the things you used yourself i will be forever grateful brother.

Also, do you think a private tutor is worth it for me given my extensive experience with the games and the lsat in general? Unfortunately i am a creature of habit and I've built on my own ways of solving for so many years that i am afraid to not get much out of changing approaches in 5 months time, like another poster above mentioned. So i feel as though a tutor may push other approaches that i wouldn't be able to internalize in 5 months, what are your thoughts on this?

[Clearly]

Thanks for that honest reply Brut I will get started with the prep again asap. I have gone through all the games at least a few times already but will do it again. One option i haven't considered, which i am glad you pointed out, is to go through the third party games like manhattan and lsatblog. You mentioned going through around 300 third party games and i doubt you got all those from the two i mentioned above. I looked to buy some games from other companies but can't seem to find anything, they are all tutorial books it seems. Brut if you can throw some links my way of the things you used yourself i will be forever grateful brother.

Also, do you think a private tutor is worth it for me given my extensive experience with the games and the lsat in general? Unfortunately i am a creature of habit and I've built on my own ways of solving for so many years that i am afraid to not get much out of changing approaches in 5 months time, like another poster above mentioned. So i feel as though a tutor may push other approaches that i wouldn't be able to internalize in 5 months, what are your thoughts on this?

Trust me as a 164->176 retaker who made most of that progress in games, at least give velocity lsat games lessons a look. He has some free lessons available, but it's the best approach I've found to games.

[tigaru]

Hi Clearly, I will definitely look into them. If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take you to make that insane jump in your score? Also I would def appreciate some pointers that you may have man, with any section. I'm pretty desperate at this point so anything you can throw my way I will definitely make use of. Thanks

[cron1834]

I never got good at games. I did go from "below average" to "above average, but not Good" through brute force and maxed out the other sections. I ended up getting a very generous offer from Cornell. There are several ways to skin a cat, and I think anyone who is bright should have 167 potential, barring a reading speed/comprehension issue.

Also, you should get a tutor yesterday. If your parents can just straight-up foot the bill for 3 years of law school in today's price range, there's no way you shouldn't do everything you can to get into a good school. A couple grand in prep is nothing compared to the earnings potential jump from Fordham to Cornell.

[tigaru]

Hi Cron,

I absolutely agree with you and others here about the retake. I will get started on some self study to hone more in on my weak points and then probably go with a private tutor as last resort. From your post i sense that you did not go with private tutor and self-studied all the way through?

But seriously to all of you, I am really really thankful for all the advice. I really do sense that you guys have my best interests in mind and for that I am truly grateful.

[cron1834]

Hi Cron,

I absolutely agree with you and others here about the retake. I will get started on some self study to hone more in on my weak points and then probably go with a private tutor as last resort. From your post i sense that you did not go with private tutor and self-studied all the way through?

But seriously to all of you, I am really really thankful for all the advice. I really do sense that you guys have my best interests in mind and for that I am truly grateful.

Yep. Though if I had money at the time I would've definitely hired a tutor. It worked out for me, but if you need 5 more questions to get over the hump, do what it takes.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

fordham is a decent option at full ride + commuting from home, assuming you know about the risks like brut mentioned. but fordham is stingy as fuck and above median numbers will not guarantee a full ride scholarship and they will not negotiate. at least that was the case my cycle... it may be different now.

[yenisey]

yea fair enough zuck, i actually revise my above advice
there really is a big difference between, say, cornell (bl+fc 74.3%) and vandy (bl+fc 41.2%)
if the goal really is biglaw, aim for those schools where biglaw is basically a presumption (lstscorereports.com is good resource for this data)

I'm just curious about deferral things. OP says he/she has a Fordham deferral and would like to reapply a second cycle. But doesn't the deferral agreement lock OP from applying to any other school, even in the next cycle in which his/her situation is equivalent to having been admitted by Fordham and paid the deposit? I'm ignorant about this, in hope of receiving expert's answer.

BTW, suppose I'm admitted by some school but granted scant money, could I retake the June LSAT and negotiate on scholaship again, even at that time it will be well into July?

[Clearly]

yea fair enough zuck, i actually revise my above advice
there really is a big difference between, say, cornell (bl+fc 74.3%) and vandy (bl+fc 41.2%)
if the goal really is biglaw, aim for those schools where biglaw is basically a presumption (lstscorereports.com is good resource for this data)

I'm just curious about deferral things. OP says he/she has a Fordham deferral and would like to reapply a second cycle. But doesn't the deferral agreement lock OP from applying to any other school, even in the next cycle in which his/her situation is equivalent to having been admitted by Fordham and paid the deposit? I'm ignorant about this, in hope of receiving expert's answer.

BTW, suppose I'm admitted by some school but granted scant money, could I retake the June LSAT and negotiate on scholaship again, even at that time it will be well into July?

Totally depends on the school. Some schools have binding deferrals, others don't. Also some schools give them out on request, others want documented medical emergencies etc.

Technically yes you can do that, problem is many schools will have spent their entire budget. Maybe they can pull together enough to satisfy your new price, maybe not, entirely school dependant.

[yenisey]

yea fair enough zuck, i actually revise my above advice
there really is a big difference between, say, cornell (bl+fc 74.3%) and vandy (bl+fc 41.2%)
if the goal really is biglaw, aim for those schools where biglaw is basically a presumption (lstscorereports.com is good resource for this data)

I'm just curious about deferral things. OP says he/she has a Fordham deferral and would like to reapply a second cycle. But doesn't the deferral agreement lock OP from applying to any other school, even in the next cycle in which his/her situation is equivalent to having been admitted by Fordham and paid the deposit? I'm ignorant about this, in hope of receiving expert's answer.

BTW, suppose I'm admitted by some school but granted scant money, could I retake the June LSAT and negotiate on scholaship again, even at that time it will be well into July?

Totally depends on the school. Some schools have binding deferrals, others don't. Also some schools give them out on request, others want documented medical emergencies etc.

Technically yes you can do that, problem is many schools will have spent their entire budget. Maybe they can pull together enough to satisfy your new price, maybe not, entirely school dependant.

Thank you very much. Your comment is tremendously valuable. And where could I gather the information about which school binding deferral, which school not binding?