Brooklyn Law (Full Ride) vs. Cardozo (Full Ride) Forum

[confused_humpback]

Want to go into Public Interest. Both schools have offered me a full ride. How do I decide between the two? They are similarly ranked, offer similar options for PI funding (Brooklyn seems slightly better, but only slightly). Any pointers?

[mornincounselor]

What do you want to do in public interest?

Does most PI work in NYC pay significantly more than PI in other places? The cost of living there is no joke. I understand money probably isn't your motivation, but I would check this site out (http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/) 50k in NYC is equal to about 28k in many other cities.

Are you 100% deadset on NYC? I ask because I think your numbers would also get full rides to some schools with much better employment stats.

[confused_humpback]

What do you want to do in public interest?

Does most PI work in NYC pay significantly more than PI in other places? The cost of living there is no joke. I understand money probably isn't your motivation, but I would check this site out (http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/) 50k in NYC is equal to about 28k in many other cities.

Are you 100% deadset on NYC? I ask because I think your numbers would also get full rides to some schools with much better employment stats.

Hey hey. Yeah, I'm deadset on NYC. Been here for awhile too so totally familiar with the money hustle here. I currently live comfortable on 50k here (rent stabilized apartment ). My long term goal is to do PI short term, either in labor, poverty, tenant law, and then transition into more journalistic work long term.

[Traynor Brah]

then transition into more journalistic work long term.

Hmm? What does this mean? If you want to be a journalist, be a journalist. Three years of law school and x years of practice, though you use somewhat similar skills in both fields, will not make it the case that you're not essentially starting from square one when you try to become a journalist. If working as a journalist is the goal, this is a very roundabout and questionable way to get there.

But to your original question, my impression is that Cardozo has its shit together to a much greater extent than Brooklyn (isn't Brooklyn like on the verge of financial ruin/laying off faculty?) and is generally more respected.

[mornincounselor]

Ok. I really don't know much about either school, but I found these threads where students are taking questions. If nothing is relevant in those threads you may have luck reaching out to the people directly (although most of these threads are years old)

Cardozo -- http://top-law-schools.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search

Brooklyn -- http://top-law-schools.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search

I would also try to negotiate for grants to cover the cost of living at both schools. I suspect your ability to hustle and network may be the difference between getting a job or not. Speaking of which if you did your UG near NYC I would check out the alumni website and find some grads who are currently doing PI.

[confused_humpback]

then transition into more journalistic work long term.

Hmm? What does this mean? If you want to be a journalist, be a journalist. Three years of law school and x years of practice, though you use somewhat similar skills in both fields, will not make it the case that you're not essentially starting from square one when you try to become a journalist. If working as a journalist is the goal, this is a very roundabout and questionable way to get there.

Law school opens up a lot more career possibilities than J-School or journalism in general (especially with the state of journalism). Also, I would like to write on policy matters and it makes sense to build credibility as a lawyer in a big city in order to do that down the road. If my goals were to be a journalist exclusively (i.e., reporter), I would probably do what you're saying and go straight into journalism.

Ok. I really don't know much about either school, but I found these threads where students are taking questions. If nothing is relevant in those threads you may have luck reaching out to the people directly (although most of these threads are years old)...I would also try to negotiate for grants to cover the cost of living at both schools. I suspect your ability to hustle and network may be the difference between getting a job or not. Speaking of which if you did your UG near NYC I would check out the alumni website and find some grads who are currently doing PI.

Thanks for the input! I'll definitely check out those threads. Best.

[BigZuck]

What career possibabilities does law school open up (besides being a lawyer)?

[confused_humpback]

What career possibabilities does law school open up (besides being a lawyer)?

Depends on the area of the law, I suppose. As far as public interest goes: public office, journalism, non-profit leadership, etc etc. That's my math on it, though. And pretty much every journalist I've talked to about the type of work I want to do has told me that a full-ride at a law school is a lot more valuable of an education than going to j-school (which is mainly for networking, refining your craft, etc).

[Clearly]

What are the scholarship stipulations on each school?

[confused_humpback]

What are the scholarship stipulations on each school?

Gotta stay in top 80% at Brooklyn. Cardozo is guaranteed.

[Traynor Brah]

Law school opens up a lot more career possibilities than J-School or journalism in general (especially with the state of journalism). Also, I would like to write on policy matters and it makes sense to build credibility as a lawyer in a big city in order to do that down the road. If my goals were to be a journalist exclusively (i.e., reporter), I would probably do what you're saying and go straight into journalism.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I'm very skeptical of your analysis. As someone with experience in both, my impression is they're equally narrow in the paths they open. I think J School is pretty close to useless, and I feel the same way about law school. And the professions are in close to equally shitty positions and it is likely neither will return to their respective heydays.

Law school is not going to get you the policy expertise you crave, and what you will get out of it won't have been done in any remotely efficient way. And doing legal aid/landlord-tenant work in the trenches (what you say you aspire to do), is not going to build you the credibility you seek. And, no offense, but tons of people who go to law school want to break into this kind of stuff, neither of these schools have really any cache, and you'll be competing against people with really impressive legal pedigrees who probably have more relevant experience from their work as an attorney.

I would only attend one of these schools if you sincerely want to grind in the trenches as a public interest atty for an extended period of time.

[blsingindisguise]

With respect to the "full ride" aspect -- is your COA the same at either school? Are you staying in your rent-stabilized apartment as opposed to moving to student housing? If you're staying in your current apt, is one school much closer to you than the other?

As for your desire to be a journalist though, I think law school is a huge mistake. Not only is the credential unlikely to help, and not only are you unlikely to gain anything in law school or your first few years of practice that will help you in journalism, but you are actually harming your career by wasting some of your best and most energetic years NOT doing journalism, NOT gaining journalism experience, NOT building journalism contacts, NOT developing a portfolio, NOT building the skills that a journalist needs, and meanwhile mostly learning stuff that has nothing whatsoever to do with public policy journalism.

[blsingindisguise]

I would say that if you really want to become a public policy specialist writer, and you're dead set on getting a degree to give you an expert shine, you're much better off getting a masters or PhD in an actual policy field. So little of what you study in law school is policy-related, and you will rarely get to engage directly with the issues you're interested in as an "in-the-trenches" lawyer -- mostly you will be dealing with procedural bullshit/paperwork.

[confused_humpback]

I would say that if you really want to become a public policy specialist writer, and you're dead set on getting a degree to give you an expert shine, you're much better off getting a masters or PhD in an actual policy field. So little of what you study in law school is policy-related, and you will rarely get to engage directly with the issues you're interested in as an "in-the-trenches" lawyer -- mostly you will be dealing with procedural bullshit/paperwork.

Kinda feeling like it's lose-lose if you're right. Either I go to law school and I lose a bunch of time when I could be building the career I want, or I could not go and spend the next year and a half getting into a grad program, then I won't have an MA until I'm 30+ (I'm 27 now), or a PhD until I'm 33/34.

[blsingindisguise]

I would say that if you really want to become a public policy specialist writer, and you're dead set on getting a degree to give you an expert shine, you're much better off getting a masters or PhD in an actual policy field. So little of what you study in law school is policy-related, and you will rarely get to engage directly with the issues you're interested in as an "in-the-trenches" lawyer -- mostly you will be dealing with procedural bullshit/paperwork.

Kinda feeling like it's lose-lose if you're right. Either I go to law school and I lose a bunch of time when I could be building the career I want, or I could not go and spend the next year and a half getting into a grad program, then I won't have an MA until I'm 30+ (I'm 27 now), or a PhD until I'm 33/34.

Well I don't think going to either BLS or Cardozo on a full ride is the absolute worst decision you could make, but keep in mind that after you put in your time as a lawyer or whatever you have in mind, you may have to start from near scratch as a journalist. If you really have a vision of a career that you're serious about and you think you can keep your eyes on the prize for that long and are that determined, you may be able to make it happen. But if not, chances are you just wind up staying a lawyer, which you may or may not like.

Are there specific journalists you want to model yourself after? Do they have law degrees? Also, you're 27, so what kind of work experience do you have so far, and why haven't you done any journalism to date?

[blsingindisguise]

If you look at guys like Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias, they just have B.A.'s -- they went to good undergrads (UCLA and Harvard, respectively), but they didn't get law or j-school degrees, or any other kind of grad degrees. They just got in there and did journalism, from the beginning, and built reps. They probably benefitted a bit from timing, coming with an early wave of internet journalism/blogging getting huge, but if you look at their bios it was mostly just about moving up the ladder from opportunity to opportunity and being, in some sense, good at what they do. For the record, I don't even like them that much, but they're very successful and a lot of people respect them. They write about "policy" on a reasonably high level for lay journalism.

I'm not sure if what you have in mind is something more technical? Aimed at a narrower, more professionalized audience? I'm not sure tbh if you know what you have in mind. But I don't think law school is really going to get you there.

[Rigo]

Both are closer to shitty than good, but I'd vote Cardozo just because a little less of a toilet and no scholly stipulation.

[Clearly]

Gotta go cardozo, mostly cuz of the stips and Brooklyn's rep for section stacking, but for the record I too don't think this is a good plan.

[blsingindisguise]

Gotta go cardozo, mostly cuz of the stips and Brooklyn's rep for section stacking, but for the record I too don't think this is a good plan.

There's no section stacking. I think that rumor is largely traceable to this chick who used to (maybe still does?) post about her extreme grudge on JDUnderground. Section stacking actually makes no fucking sense whatsoever if you think it through thoroughly.

[Clearly]

Gotta go cardozo, mostly cuz of the stips and Brooklyn's rep for section stacking, but for the record I too don't think this is a good plan.

There's no section stacking. I think that rumor is largely traceable to this chick who used to (maybe still does?) post about her extreme grudge on JDUnderground. Section stacking actually makes no fucking sense whatsoever if you think it through thoroughly.

My recommendation stands because 20% chance of sticker is worse than 0%...and of course I have no proof of Brooklyn section stacking, that's why I said rep for section stacking and not "because they section stack". What I'm most curious about however is how section stacking "makes no fucking sense", because I'm too lazy to think it through thoroughly.

[BigZuck]

I would also like to be walked through why section stacking makes no sense

[wiz]

Yeah, can you help us think through section stacking thoroughly? Seems to make sense to me.

[Vursz]

I currently work in journalism (part-time during law school), so a couple quick thoughts on that:

- I've actually experienced a pretty significant value-add from law school, at least in terms of being able to place freelance articles in various venues. This may just be due to the fact that I went to a largely unknown undergrad.
- Journalism does not pay much. It's not worth putting all your eggs in that basket (I make enough to live on month-to-month, but not much more). In the future, I plan to pursue this interest as purely a side gig when I have the time.
- If I really wanted to go all-in on a career that maximizes all of these skills, I'd try to get into a communications/public relations role at a large legal nonprofit organization. There is a niche for folks seeking to bridge the law-journalism professional divide, but going that route probably means your JD won't really be used in legal practice (and the people who get these kinds of jobs didn't go to places like Brooklyn or Cardozo).

[jrass]

What are the scholarship stipulations on each school?

Gotta stay in top 80% at Brooklyn. Cardozo is guaranteed.

Cardozo is slightly more respected so with the guaranteed scholarship I'd go there. Cardozo is in one of the most expensive areas in NYC so you will want to live off campus and prioritize being close to a 1/2/3, B/D/F or N/P/R/W subway line over distance. A small change like that could save you 20kish over 3 years.

[gnomgnomuch]

OP, if you want to do work in policy, then go get an MPP or a Ph.D in policy. (I'm currently doing an MPP, if you want to, feel free to message me.)

Law school, outside of the top top top schools, and the top top top jobs, will rarely provide you the opportunity to work in shaping/impacting policy.

Policy jobs are a bit undefined either way - writing about policy doesn't require a degree in policy. If you want to be a policy analyst, you'll need economics/statistics coursework, and chances are if you want to work in a certain field you'll need either 1) Prior WE 2) A bachelors in the field or 3) Another masters degree specializing in that area of policy.

It sounds to me like you're a bit unsure of what you want to do. Finally, the general impression I have (only mine, so take it with a grain of salt) is that Cardozo > Brooklyn, but neither are top-notch. I'd go Cardozo because full ride with no stipulations is better than full ride with a stipulation. If you want PI though, I'd potentially consider CUNY...I've heard surprising things about the quality of it's PI placement.