How much does it matter where you go in the bottom of the T14 Forum

[christinanc93]

How much does it really matter which school you go to in the bottom of the T14, like outside the T6? Doesn't make much of a difference if you go to Cornell, or Georgetown, or Northwestern, or Berkeley, or Duke, or Virginia, or Penn, or Michigan? At that point is it better to make the decision based off where you want to live, or just go to the highest possible?

[barkschool]

With gulc being a different beast, the lower northwestern, Cornell, michigans shares similar number in employer (you'll have to look at them), but at you go higher the employment numbers are much better. Higher % clerkships, fed gov ect...

[fredfred]

penn/duke/UVA/Berk is a much different animal then michigan (poor michigan with its drastic fall from grace)/GT/NW/Cornell. t14 is probably 4 tiered.

Tier 1- YHS
Tier 2- CCN
Tier 3- PDVB
The rest/ tier 4- NW/M/GT/C

There may not be huge differences between the tiers, but it certainly seems just as there is a significant difference between Harvard and Berkeley there is from Virginia to GT.

[Companion Cube]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

[deepseapartners]

I would recommend thinking about the following things in roughly this order:

- Who gave me the most scholarship money?
.
.
.
.
.
- Everything else.

After figuring out who is going to make law school the least expensive for you, then start thinking about more qualitative questions like location, differences in more specific employment outcomes, differences in campus environment, etc.

[Winter is Coming]

Also depends on what you want to do exactly. Cornell has really good NYC big law placement, not a huge focus on PI work here (people do it of course and get some good jobs).

[barkschool]

Don't forget if you go to Stanford you're bound to complain about your job market no matter the results

[christinanc93]

Don't forget if you go to Stanford you're bound to complain about your job market no matter the results

Wait why? I thought people at HYS could go anywhere?

[mt2165]

penn/duke/UVA/Berk is a much different animal then michigan (poor michigan with its drastic fall from grace)/GT/NW/Cornell. t14 is probably 4 tiered.

Tier 1- YHS
Tier 2- CCN
Tier 3- PDVB
The rest/ tier 4- NW/M/GT/C

There may not be huge differences between the tiers, but it certainly seems just as there is a significant difference between Harvard and Berkeley there is from Virginia to GT.

This is the oft-toted advice-but I think this might largely be a function of self-perpetuation. I really don't think there is really any difference between say, Cornell/Duke/Berkeley/Northwestern, in regards to placement power. Gtown and Michigan have fallen behind as of late, but even Michigan's numbers have rebounded a little. I agree though, that yeah, there's a difference between H and Berkely, but from Penn to Cornell/Northwestern, not really.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Don't forget if you go to Stanford you're bound to complain about your job market no matter the results

Wait why? I thought people at HYS could go anywhere?

He didn't say S people wouldn't have good results, just that they'd complain about them.

[JCougar]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

[christinanc93]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

I'd rather die than be stuck in Colorado Springs. I absolutely hate it here. I'll take my chances with the DC market

[RZ5646]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

What's the best way of choosing a different hometown, preferably one within 300 miles of a T14 law school?

[JCougar]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

What's the best way of choosing a different hometown, preferably one within 300 miles of a T14 law school?

If it's that close to your home town and it's a T14, you don't really have to worry. But if you're from LA and you're just expecting to set up shop in Chicago, even a T6 isn't foolproof. Or if you are from Texas, go to USC/UCLA and expect to set up shop in Boston, you're an idiot.

T14s generally will be portable back to your own hometown. But T14s aren't a guarantee to get you into their local market. The hometown ---> bar exam connection is probably the strongest connection. In that your best chances of looking for a job are by taking the bar exam in your home state and looking for a job in your hometown. Going to a nearby law school will help in addition to this, but by far the most important thing is to look for jobs in your hometown if you strike out at OCI. And even at OCI, you should be bidding strong in your home state, if possible.

[JCougar]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

I'd rather die than be stuck in Colorado Springs. I absolutely hate it here. I'll take my chances with the DC market

I would learn to tolerate Denver/Boulder if I were you.

DC is probably the worst place in the country to be looking for a job as a fresh graduate. FedGov still is barely hiring entry-level people due to the sequester. And DC biglaw is far more competitive than even NYC. You really need to be IP secure or like a war hero or something, in addition to getting honors at a T14, to really be competitive for DC Biglaw.

[christinanc93]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

I'd rather die than be stuck in Colorado Springs. I absolutely hate it here. I'll take my chances with the DC market

I would learn to tolerate Denver/Boulder if I were you.

DC is probably the worst place in the country to be looking for a job as a fresh graduate. FedGov still is barely hiring entry-level people due to the sequester. And DC biglaw is far more competitive than even NYC. You really need to be IP secure or like a war hero or something, in addition to getting honors at a T14, to really be competitive for DC Biglaw.

Yeah there's a big problem with that: the kind of law I want to go into generally is not a thing in Colorado, and I want out of this state.

[mornincounselor]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

What's the best way of choosing a different hometown, preferably one within 300 miles of a T14 law school?

Uhm pick Penn, Virginia, or Michigan so you grab that in-state bonus?

[abl]

Regional differences matter so much more than anything else. So Northwestern is going to give you a much, much better chance of Chicago jobs than Cornell will. In fact, I think Northwestern's probably the stronger choice for Chicago jobs over schools like Penn and Berkeley (and maybe even NYU). Few folks at "lower T14" schools go on the market wanting to work "anywhere"--OCI and the realities of other hiring generally force even students with no preferences to fabricate geographic regions of focus. So, it's probably true that marginally more Penn students get desirable jobs than Northwestern students. But, for the most part, these students are getting different (albeit comparable) jobs. Therefore, although your chances of getting "some good" job are probably noticeably better at Penn than at Northwestern, the far bigger impact of your choice to go to Penn rather than Northwestern is on where, geographically, you're likely to work. This is all to say that these sorts of mini-tiers are helpful--but for students who have some real geographical preferences (and probably most do, even if it takes some self-reflection to realize that), it may be best to ignore the differences between the top 14 (with the exception of HYS and maybe CCN) and go to the school that you like the most, gives you the most aid, and places well in the region in which you want to work and live.

[Br3v]

penn/duke/UVA/Berk is a much different animal then michigan (poor michigan with its drastic fall from grace)/GT/NW/Cornell. t14 is probably 4 tiered.

Tier 1- YHS
Tier 2- CCN
Tier 3- PDVB
The rest/ tier 4- NW/M/GT/C

There may not be huge differences between the tiers, but it certainly seems just as there is a significant difference between Harvard and Berkeley there is from Virginia to GT.

Wait what happened to Michigan? I thought they were still a peer with UVA/Duke/Penn

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

Regional differences matter so much more than anything else. So Northwestern is going to give you a much, much better chance of Chicago jobs than Cornell will. In fact, I think Northwestern's probably the stronger choice for Chicago jobs over schools like Penn and Berkeley (and maybe even NYU). Few folks at "lower T14" schools go on the market wanting to work "anywhere"--OCI and the realities of other hiring generally force even students with no preferences to fabricate geographic regions of focus. So, it's probably true that marginally more Penn students get desirable jobs than Northwestern students. But, for the most part, these students are getting different (albeit comparable) jobs. Therefore, although your chances of getting "some good" job are probably noticeably better at Penn than at Northwestern, the far bigger impact of your choice to go to Penn rather than Northwestern is on where, geographically, you're likely to work. This is all to say that these sorts of mini-tiers are helpful--but for students who have some real geographical preferences (and probably most do, even if it takes some self-reflection to realize that), it may be best to ignore the differences between the top 14 (with the exception of HYS and maybe CCN) and go to the school that you like the most, gives you the most aid, and places well in the region in which you want to work and live.

this is good advice.

[Traynor Brah]

it [is] . . . best to ignore the differences between the top [schools] (with the exception of HYS . . .) and go to the school that . . . gives you the most aid[] and places well in the region in which you want to work and live.

I strongly support this statement.

[LA Spring]

While anecdotal, my CA experience is that outside of CA schools, Penn leads the way with CA BL firms… especially in comparison to other Northeastern schools. To me the difference between NYC and LA is mainly the great CA lifestyle and weather, the only similarity is that COL is outrageous.

[Br3v]

While anecdotal, my CA experience is that outside of CA schools, Penn leads the way with CA BL firms… especially in comparison to other Northeastern schools. To me the difference between NYC and LA is mainly the great CA lifestyle and weather, the only similarity is that COL is outrageous.

Anecdotally, UVA seems to place pretty well in California

[Biglaw1990]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

What's the best way of choosing a different hometown, preferably one within 300 miles of a T14 law school?

Uhm pick Penn, Virginia, or Michigan so you grab that in-state bonus?

Penn isn't a state school.

[NoDayButToday]

I agree with barkschool, and would only add that the biggest difference maker would be geography. Go to school close to where you want to work if possible.

I would also like to add "make sure where you want to work is close to where you grew up...preferably your home town."

People with no ties to Chicago can't just go to UChi and expect to waltz into a Chicago job. NYC is less picky about where you're from, as they just want warm bodies with high grades. But everywhere else prefers the local connection. Best to align your hometown/law school/bar exam as close as possible to optimize your chances.

What's the best way of choosing a different hometown, preferably one within 300 miles of a T14 law school?

Uhm pick Penn, Virginia, or Michigan so you grab that in-state bonus?

Penn isn't a state school.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospe ... uition.htm
And VA in-state isn't that significant. Though they are a state school, I'm pretty sure they have enough alumni donations to not rely on state funds.

Edit: actually, Michigan cost difference isn't that significant either https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... rates.aspx

Unless we're talking exclusively about a networking/job opportunity advantage?