T-14 Really Worth It? Forum

[christinanc93]

So, I'm looking for thoughts. I've heard it over and over again, that law is obsessed with prestige and that if you don't go to one of the top 14 schools, it's almost not even worth going to law school. I've also noticed that most of the people who say this cite Big Law opportunities as the main reason. My question to you is this: if a person has no desire to work in Big Law, and would prefer to work for the government, is a T-14 school still the best option, or is it better to go to a lower ranked school with a full ride scholarship?

[fats provolone]

ppl talk about biglaw because it's a popular outcome. all jobs are easier to get from a better school more or less. "Government" is pretty broad. What particular job do you want? Some can be extremely competitive

[christinanc93]

I want to do civil rights law in the federal government in DC. I know there are several openings as of now for this position in a host of different departments, and also non-profit jobs.

[Companion Cube]

I mean, it's not like there's no middle ground. In the ideal would be some scholly at a T14.

Also, gov't jobs are still very competitive. There are plenty of people at every T14 who want to do PI even if they're a minority. One thing that separates higher ranked schools from lower, besides big law + fed clerk numbers, is the career services office. Some of the lower schools can't afford to have people who's sole job is to put people on a PI track.

Can you be more specific about the kind of gov't job you want? Many, if not nearly all, require some years of experience before they'll even consider you. Thus, you're likely going to end up seeking a private sector job for a while anyway, even if just as a means to another end.

Edit: scooped

[fats provolone]

If ur dead set on govt/nonprofit I'd just go to the best school you get into. They tend to have the best LRAP programs

[Clemenceau]

I want to do civil rights law in the federal government in DC. I know there are several openings as of now for this position in a host of different departments, and also non-profit jobs.

Do you know any lawyers that currently work in these positions? Or do you have a feel for what credentials these departments are looking for?

[TheSpanishMain]

Federal civil rights jobs are more competitive than your average big law job.

[christinanc93]

I want to do civil rights law in the federal government in DC. I know there are several openings as of now for this position in a host of different departments, and also non-profit jobs.

Do you know any lawyers that currently work in these positions? Or do you have a feel for what credentials these departments are looking for?

I know a few, but I have been reading every job description (in the employment ads) for them, so I think I have a fairly good idea of the credentials they are looking for, but of course, they wouldn't say something like "graduates of non-T14 schools need not apply" even if that was actually the case. I'm also pretty confident that I could work for the DA for a while if I needed to gain experience before landing some of those jobs (because I work there now, just not as an attorney).

[christinanc93]

Federal civil rights jobs are more competitive than your average big law job.

OK Thank you, so T14 probably an even better idea for these? I'm not worried about not getting in, as I've already been accepted to one, (but I haven't heard from any of the other schools yet), just worried about the debt. I'm OK making the investment if it is indeed necessary and worth it for the job I want through.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The civil rights division of DOJ does appear to somewhat pedigree conscious. Overall, I think the feds tend to favor high grades + demonstrated experience/commitment in the field over school name, but it varies depending on the hiring official - some are very concerned with school pedigree, some don't care. And of course, school name is never going to *hurt* you - there are always going to be candidates with excellent grades, experience, and a fancy school name. The biggest issue with federal hiring is just that there generally aren't a lot of openings and there's lots of competition when there are.

[abl]

Federal civil rights jobs are more competitive than your average big law job.

OK Thank you, so T14 probably an even better idea for these? I'm not worried about not getting in, as I've already been accepted to one, (but I haven't heard from any of the other schools yet), just worried about the debt. I'm OK making the investment if it is indeed necessary and worth it for the job I want through.

Yes. And depending on which T14 you go to, it's likely that the school's LRAP will cover at east part of the COA if you go this route. Note, though, that if we're talking DOJ honors positrons, even HYS aren't guarantees so it's worth thinking about whether there are other legal career paths you'd find fulfilling before spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and three years of your life chasing this dream.

[BigZuck]

Make sure you know a lot about the type of job you envision, what it takes to get there, and that it actually exists before you sign on to, like, Duke at sticker.

If it's some vague "Oh man, people need civil rights and I'd love to help them get them that'd be so cool!" thing like lots of people who are "interested in public interest law" before law school, then run far, far away. You'll be in the OCI breadline like everyone else.

But if you know what the job is, how to get it, and you know you want it and the debt is manageable, then go for it.

[jbagelboy]

You're talking about an extremely selective set of jobs for which you will need all the credentials and opportunities you can get. This is nothing like getting an SA at a large firm. I would highly recommend a "T14" for your goals. (Also broaden your goals.)

[Traynor Brah]

You're talking about an extremely selective set of jobs for which you will need all the credentials and opportunities you can get. This is nothing like getting an SA at a large firm. I would highly recommend a "T14" for your goals. (Also broaden your goals.)

[84651846190]

It's not so much that the T14 is "worth it" as it is the non-T14 are decidedly NOT worth it.

[84651846190]

Federal civil rights jobs are more competitive than your average big law job.

This. Most of the coolest jobs are going to HYS types or people with tippy top connections or credentials from lower ranked law schools (or, rarely, people who just get insanely lucky). The vast majority of law grads will never get a sniff of interest from hiring personnel for these kinds of jobs.

[twenty]

A lot of borderline misinformation in this thread.

The vast majority of government employers could not care less about how prestigious your school is. You'll get a slight bump for HYSCCN~, and a slight hurt for TTT. The wide range of schools in between have very little affect beyond ease of placement. These government employers include almost all DA/PD offices, state and county attorney gigs, military, and probably 2/3rds of federal agencies.

What these employers do care about is your commitment to their area of law. While Army JAG has a 6%-9% acceptance rate, over 60% of their 2L interns were in the following year's JAG board results. The place where you really get hurt is ITE a lot of agencies/government hiring entities just do complete hiring freezes and then you're fucked.

There are some government employers - notably DOJ, SEC, DOS (and a few others) - that are very prestige conscious. The problem is, they're also very grades-conscious, maybe even more than prestige conscious, and still want a pretty specific student profile. I would be extremely hesitant to go to law school with the goal of working for one of these agencies.

[BigZuck]

A lot of borderline misinformation in this thread.

The vast majority of government employers could not care less about how prestigious your school is. You'll get a slight bump for HYSCCN~, and a slight hurt for TTT. The wide range of schools in between have very little affect beyond ease of placement. These government employers include almost all DA/PD offices, state and county attorney gigs, military, and probably 2/3rds of federal agencies.

What these employers do care about is your commitment to their area of law. While Army JAG has a 6%-9% acceptance rate, over 60% of their 2L interns were in the following year's JAG board results. The place where you really get hurt is ITE a lot of agencies/government hiring entities just do complete hiring freezes and then you're fucked.

There are some government employers - notably DOJ, SEC, DOS (and a few others) - that are very prestige conscious. The problem is, they're also very grades-conscious, maybe even more than prestige conscious, and still want a pretty specific student profile. I would be extremely hesitant to go to law school with the goal of working for one of these agencies.

I'm not really sure what the misinformation is (just kind of skimmed over the thread again so maybe I missed it). Seems like what the OP says they are interested in is your third category of employers. I think what people were saying is the same thing you're saying. Then again it is all too long; I'm not going to bother rereading it so maybe I missed the stuff you're quibbling with.

[kreitz]

I'm currently a 3L at a T-50 school with a full tuition scholarship and have gotten interviews for several federal government jobs, including DOJ Honors (in the ENRD division). I have yet to find out if I'll actually get an offer, but I'm encouraged that I'm at least getting interviews. Unlike most people on this thread, I think going to a T-50 school with a full ride was the right choice for me. I will graduate with under $30,000 in debt and even if I don't get into the federal government right away, I am confident that I will get there eventually. If you go to a T-50 school, I think the key to being competitive for federal jobs is to have a strong academic record (at least top 25%), do a journal, make sure at least one of your summer jobs is relevant to the job you ultimately want, and try to stand out in as many other ways as possible. I did a Master's and Peace Corps before law school, which I think has helped me a lot, I am on my school's law review, my student note (which is relevant to the federal work I'm interested in) is in publication now, and I've been really active in leadership roles in various clubs that are relevant to the federal jobs I'm applying for. During my DOJ interview, the interviewers told me that they are making a conscientious effort to branch outside the T-15 schools in hiring new attorneys.

[gnomgnomuch]

I'm currently a 3L at a T-50 school with a full tuition scholarship and have gotten interviews for several federal government jobs, including DOJ Honors (in the ENRD division). I have yet to find out if I'll actually get an offer, but I'm encouraged that I'm at least getting interviews. Unlike most people on this thread, I think going to a T-50 school with a full ride was the right choice for me. I will graduate with under $30,000 in debt and even if I don't get into the federal government right away, I am confident that I will get there eventually. If you go to a T-50 school, I think the key to being competitive for federal jobs is to have a strong academic record (at least top 25%), do a journal, make sure at least one of your summer jobs is relevant to the job you ultimately want, and try to stand out in as many other ways as possible. I did a Master's and Peace Corps before law school, which I think has helped me a lot, I am on my school's law review, my student note (which is relevant to the federal work I'm interested in) is in publication now, and I've been really active in leadership roles in various clubs that are relevant to the federal jobs I'm applying for. During my DOJ interview, the interviewers told me that they are making a conscientious effort to branch outside the T-15 schools in hiring new attorneys.

What Masters did you do, if you're not comfortable sharing that info in a thread can you PM me please?

[NoDayButToday]

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[kreitz]

I'm currently a 3L at a T-50 school with a full tuition scholarship and have gotten interviews for several federal government jobs, including DOJ Honors (in the ENRD division). I have yet to find out if I'll actually get an offer, but I'm encouraged that I'm at least getting interviews. Unlike most people on this thread, I think going to a T-50 school with a full ride was the right choice for me. I will graduate with under $30,000 in debt and even if I don't get into the federal government right away, I am confident that I will get there eventually. If you go to a T-50 school, I think the key to being competitive for federal jobs is to have a strong academic record (at least top 25%), do a journal, make sure at least one of your summer jobs is relevant to the job you ultimately want, and try to stand out in as many other ways as possible. I did a Master's and Peace Corps before law school, which I think has helped me a lot, I am on my school's law review, my student note (which is relevant to the federal work I'm interested in) is in publication now, and I've been really active in leadership roles in various clubs that are relevant to the federal jobs I'm applying for. During my DOJ interview, the interviewers told me that they are making a conscientious effort to branch outside the T-15 schools in hiring new attorneys.

What Masters did you do, if you're not comfortable sharing that info in a thread can you PM me please?

I did a Masters in Geography with a Certificate in Water Policy. I've been strategic in the jobs I've gone after where my background in environmental policy, working with tribes, and working in public service has helped me stand out.

[BiglawAssociate]

It's not so much that the T14 is "worth it" as it is the non-T14 are decidedly NOT worth it.

Right, and T-14s are only worth it if you get a huge scholarship and/or come from rich parents.

In other words, DONT GO TO LAW SCHOOL IF YOU ARE A POOR.

[DaftAndDirect]

[deleted]

[DaftAndDirect]

Every LSAT taker with a 160+ should just get a masters in basic business/accounting and become an expert in Microsoft Excel. Trust me, you will get hired, and after a couple years, you will have a totally mediocre but perfectly happy ever-so-slightly upper middle class life and you will be significantly happier than 98% of the Big Law attorneys that I know. If you need to get your intellectual rocks off, carve out some time each month to do some drugs and read some Nietzsche with your closest nerd friends. I am dead fucking serious.

You can ignore the above advice if you are dead set on public interest. But in that case, please do NOT take on $50k+ of debt to finance your law school education.

For context, T-14 grad and V-5 associate here. Went to law school primarily because I wanted a new intellectual challenge and the T-14 ego boost that came with it. Took out significant debt to go to law school and, in purely economic terms, it was a bad investment. Hard to say if I regret it though because law school gave me a great deal of perspective.