Did I mess up by EDing at WUSTL? Forum

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:01 am

I applied early decision to WUSTL and got in with the full scholarship they offer to ED admittants.
170 LSAT in June; this was my first take and better than expected. I don't think I could've done better on a retake in October because I'm in my last undergrad semester now and it's a tough one.
LSAC GPA is 3.04 (should be 3.1 after this sem). This is why I assumed WUSTL ED was my best bet at a good scholarship at a T20 school. I addressed it strongly in my personal statement, and WUSTL admissions specifically mentioned this as something that helped my app.
I want to work in Chicago. I've lived in the Chicago suburbs my whole life; almost all my personal connections are in/around Chicago. This is the big reason I'm now worried about WUSTL. Biglaw interests me but I'm not married to it. I'm a biology major and I'm "interested" in IP but I'm well aware I'd need way more than just a BS in Biology to have good options.
As far as I know, my parents will not be helping pay for law school at all. I'm very debt-averse. Currently in undergrad with 20K debt and no savings. COL in St. Louis is significantly less than Chicago; commuting to NU or UChicago would not be a real option.
I guess it's too late to have second thoughts now, but I am anyway. I'm basically wondering: should I have even tried at UChicago (dream school) or gone for a decent scholarship at a lower T14 school like Northwestern? The numbers just didn't look promising at all with my GPA, so I bet it all on WUSTL. Was this a mistake?

smaug · Post by **smaug** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:03 am

kingpin101 · Post by **kingpin101** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:09 am

You messed up by applying to law school.

Nekrowizard · Post by **Nekrowizard** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:08 am

You would almost certainly have not gotten into Chicago, even with a 175+. But you did mess up by applying early ED, since with a few more points on the LSAT you probably would have gotten Northwestern. You'd have ended up paying close to sticker--I doubt that low of a GPA would swing Northwestern ED, but it has happened.

Leonardo DiCaprio · Post by **Leonardo DiCaprio** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:15 am

yes, that was a mistake. 170 w/ 3.0 would have gotten you a full ride at WUSTL anyway even without EDing. initially they would have low-balled you with a 120k or 135k scholarship, and then they would up it to 150k with negotiation towards the end of the cycle. this has been true for like the past 3 admissions cycles.

it sucks. if i were you id reapply next year instead of going with wustl. if you want to work in chicago and only chicago then with the kind of numbers you have you just have to eat shit and take northwestern or chicago imo. chicago from wustl is possible, but there is like a 70% chance you wont get a biglaw job coming out of wustl. even with a full scholly at wustl you're still gonna have 60k in debt for COL loans after interest that accrues over 3 years.

WUSTL
best outcome - chicago biglaw w/60k in debt but you have a 70% chance of this not happening
most likely outcome - low paying firm job with 60k in debt
worst outcome - no job w/ 60k in debt

NU/Chicago
best outcome - chicago biglaw w/ 200k+ in debt
most likely outcome - chicago biglaw w/200k+ in debt
worst outcome - no job w/ 200k+ debt

really not exactly a great situation whichever way you go tho. but thats the life of a splitter.

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:37 am

kingpin101 wrote:You messed up by applying to law school.

Clemenceau · Post by **Clemenceau** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:42 am

Honestly a full ride from wustl isn't that bad of an outcome for your numbers. You said you're debt averse, and col around wustl is quite low.

However, the troubling part is that it seems like you didn't think this through very thoroughly (based on the existence of this thread). But good news is you're still in undergrad and no one is holding a gun to your head making you go to law school. I'd withdraw now.

acr · Post by **acr** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:43 am

I was in the exact same situation you were, except slightly lower numbers. I took the ED at WUSTL and was happy with it at first. Now I want to drop out. I would be much happier working an entry-level job in Chicago than being here in STL. The only way to strike gold is to come out of WUSTL with no debt and a big law job. It can happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. Being debt averse I wouldn't take NU or C at sticker either. I would avoid law school altogether, find a job you can tolerate in Chicago near your family and friends, put yourself on a better career path or gain some experience, and enjoy your freedom.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:54 am

Thanks for the replies.

Nekrowizard wrote:You would almost certainly have not gotten into Chicago, even with a 175+.

That's been my understanding from the beginning, and I'm now thinking if I have any dream of going to Chicago it's going to happen via transfer from WUSTL. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't already looking into that possibility. That'll guarantee a huge amount of debt, but I think that's currently my best case scenario. And, obviously, getting in at all will be very difficult. If I'm doing well enough to transfer to Chicago, it might be smarter keep doing that well at WUSTL for free and hope for a Chicago biglaw outcome. Basically, nothing is stable and it all depends on ranking really high.

Leonardo DiCaprio wrote: even with a full scholly at wustl you're still gonna have 60k in debt for COL loans after interest that accrues over 3 years.

I'm hoping to cut into that 60k significantly by working as much as possible for the next 7 months and saving. Still, the more important thing is the job outcome.
I don't really see how waiting a year gets me any better of an outcome than paying close to sticker at NU, since Chicago is pretty much out and my UGPA isn't going any higher than 3.1. I can retake the LSAT, but practicing I peaked in the low 170s and I really think I maxed out my score the first time. A 175+ is not likely.
Obviously, I can just decide not to go to law school at all and try to figure out what to do with a BS in Bio and a low GPA. That won't be pretty either.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:56 am

acr wrote:I was in the exact same situation you were, except slightly lower numbers. I took the ED at WUSTL and was happy with it at first. Now I want to drop out. I would be much happier working an entry-level job in Chicago than being here in STL.

Ouch. This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Do you hate St. Louis itself, or the school, or what?
It's not out of the question that I could really learn to love St. Louis or whatever other smaller Midwestern city. Maybe my best option at this point is to focus on being ok with not being in Chicago. It's not impossible for me. Just feels like a big downgrade in dreams.

acr · Post by **acr** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:09 am

BWeez wrote:
acr wrote:I was in the exact same situation you were, except slightly lower numbers. I took the ED at WUSTL and was happy with it at first. Now I want to drop out. I would be much happier working an entry-level job in Chicago than being here in STL.
Ouch. This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Do you hate St. Louis itself, or the school, or what?
It's not out of the question that I could really learn to love St. Louis or whatever other smaller Midwestern city. Maybe my best option at this point is to focus on being ok with not being in Chicago. It's not impossible for me. Just feels like a big downgrade in dreams.

I don't think there is anything objectively bad with St. Louis or WUSTL. It is an extremely cheap place to go to law school. If I continue I will graduate with no debt. The areas in St. Louis that law students frequent are actually quite nice, clean, and safe. And it's not as desolate or deserted as some people make it out to be. If you find a nice group of friends you fit in with you can have a good time.

Like you, my entire network is in Chicago. I have dozens of friends from undergrad moving down to the city, family in the suburbs, and great connections in finance and other industries. I just feel so unfulfilled in St. Louis because I feel like I'm missing out. I hear about my undergrad friends getting 9-5 50K jobs in the city with time to enjoy themselves and I find myself wishing I was in their situation. I would probably be unfulfilled in other places though, so it's not anything strictly about St. Louis or WUSTL. The good news is Chicago isn't too far which gives me the ability to make it back occasionally. I guess I would describe it as just wanting to be free from law school all the time.

I'm also worried about WUSTL's ability to get me to a market I want to be in. There's an odd feeling around campus here that everyone acts like they'll get the exact job they want in the exact location they want. Maybe this is common in all law schools but I feel like people truly overestimate the job prospects here and ignore WUSTL's true ability to get you a good job.

Again, you could hit the jackpot and land Chicago big law with no debt. That would be really sweet. PM me if you have any more questions, I think I can help since I went through literally the exact same thing you're going through

acr · Post by **acr** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:11 am

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:25 am

Post removed.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:35 am

I'm a white male so nah. My softs are maybe unique, but not amazing. Science degree is unusual, so it helped me stand out; I'm doing biology research now, probably my best extracurricular; I was a genetics lab TA and "guest lecturer," which is way less impressive than it sounds. I started a club in community college, I was a student senator, worked some pretty lame jobs. There are other things here and there. I was involved for sure but nothing to blow anybody out of the water. I definitely played up the science background in my apps.

Nekrowizard · Post by **Nekrowizard** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:38 am

Here's my scheme for you, OP, since you haven't graduated yet. Do not graduate. If you have applied to graduate, withdraw. Withdraw from WUSTL. Then find the shittiest community college near you that gives out A+'s and take History of Rock 'n' Roll (and similar) online for like 30 credits a semester. Do that for year, and then BAM, you're sitting in Chicago.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:42 am

Nekrowizard wrote:Here's my scheme for you, OP, since you haven't graduated yet. Do not graduate. If you have applied to graduate, withdraw. Withdraw from WUSTL. Then find the shittiest community college near you that gives out A+'s and take History of Rock 'n' Roll (and similar) online for like 30 credits a semester. Do that for year, and then BAM, you're sitting in Chicago.

Hahaha. I've done my fair share of shitty com col classes for A's already, so I'm afraid I can't really dig myself out of the hole at this point. I think I have like 200+ credits including retakes. Organic chemistry is a bitch, in case nobody knew that.

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:45 am

Post removed.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:01 am

mornincounselor wrote:Now, the better option altogether is probably to take a year off, retake the LSAT, and get into UChicago, or a scholarship to NU. But of course, WUSTL may very well not offer you the full ride again and they really are the best bet for scholarship money in the top 25.

Is UChicago even at all possible with a 3.0 - 3.1? I've been pretty much convinced by my research that it's not.
What do you (or anybody else) think of trying to transfer into UChicago after a year? Is it feasible? A good idea? Worth it?
Thank you for the alternate take on my scenario btw. It's nice to at least see the "right decision" argument articulated by somebody, even if the whole situation in general is not the best.

Nekrowizard · Post by **Nekrowizard** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:07 am

BWeez wrote:
mornincounselor wrote:Now, the better option altogether is probably to take a year off, retake the LSAT, and get into UChicago, or a scholarship to NU. But of course, WUSTL may very well not offer you the full ride again and they really are the best bet for scholarship money in the top 25.
Is UChicago even at all possible with a 3.0 - 3.1? I've been pretty much convinced by my research that it's not.
What do you (or anybody else) think of trying to transfer into UChicago after a year? Is it feasible? A good idea? Worth it?
Thank you for the alternate take on my scenario btw. It's nice to at least see the "right decision" argument articulated by somebody, even if the whole situation in general is not the best.

Chicago will not be possible unless you follow my scheme to raise GPA (though with 200 credits it'd probably take too long to be worth it tbh). You can try to transfer, and Chicago is probably one of the easier schools, since you can ED transfer and avoid having second semester grades being taken into account. So just kill it first semester. Read Getting to Maybe. Buy some E&Es. Buy some Chirelstein. If you're mega-autistic you can read those over the summer.

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:10 am

Post removed.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:35 am

Clemenceau wrote:However, the troubling part is that it seems like you didn't think this through very thoroughly (based on the existence of this thread). But good news is you're still in undergrad and no one is holding a gun to your head making you go to law school. I'd withdraw now.

I'm gonna go ahead an take exception to that. I've actually been thinking about law school since high school, got talked out of it by people scared about job prospects, and decided to go for it again after 4 years of examining my skills, career desires, talents, other career options, etc. I spent years as pre-healthcare until it was clear that it wasn't for me. I broadened my undergrad repertoire into countless different areas and fields and thought long and hard about whether law school would be worth all its problems. I came to the conclusion that it is and I'm definitely confident that I should go to law school.
Now, as far as thinking through the WUSTL ED, I guess I made the original post to see if that was a good decision. Some (more) are saying it wasn't, others are saying it was. I think, given my stats, it is pretty likely that I maxed out or nearly maxed out on possible scholarship money from a highly ranked school. But I'm open to the possibility that it really was the wrong thing to do, and hearing what people have to say on that front will help my decision-making going forward. Hopefully this thread will help future or current 0Ls trying to decide what to do about WUSTL.

landshoes · Post by **landshoes** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:05 am

I would not assume that Chicago won't happen without applying. It does seem like a long shot but that doesn't make it not worth a try, especially if you're willing to pay sticker.

Going to WUSTL with the idea that you'll transfer to Chicago is not so great. If you don't do well you can't transfer and you're fucked job-wise.

Get a job, reapply next year.

BWeez · Post by **BWeez** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:35 am

landshoes wrote:I would not assume that Chicago won't happen without applying. It does seem like a long shot but that doesn't make it not worth a try, especially if you're willing to pay sticker.

Going to WUSTL with the idea that you'll transfer to Chicago is not so great. If you don't do well you can't transfer and you're fucked job-wise.

Get a job, reapply next year.

So I should give up the full scholarship I have, try to get some sort of impressive job (there is really, really not much out there for people with just a BS in biology) and wait a year to try to get into UChicago, to pay sticker, when the chances of getting in with a 3.0x are basically nil? It just doesn't seem worth the risk to me. Like, at all. Maybe I can try for ED at NU; that's also really unlikely with my GPA. It just is. Then WUSTL may very well not offer me a full scholarship again.
If I'm gonna be banking my future on slim chances of getting into UChicago next year, then it makes way more sense for me to try to do it by transferring. If I go to UChicago I pay sticker no matter what. I could try, as you suggest, applying fresh next year: I have an almost negligible chance of getting in, then I pay for 3 years sticker if I somehow do. Or I can get one year free at WUSTL, do well enough to transfer (higher likelihood of that than of getting into UChicago fresh), and pay for 2 years sticker. Maybe I don't do well enough to transfer to UChicago, but can transfer to NU instead. OK, fine. The only real possible benefit I'm giving up here is the slim chance of the ED scholarship at NU. There's no way I have a high enough chance of getting that with a 3.1 for it to be worth a year off. Maybe I can add a few LSAT points, but probably not. Again, not nearly a high enough chance for this to be worth it.
I understand that my ED WUSTL scenario is not ideal. But the alternatives being suggested, perhaps aside from skipping law school altogether, do not really make any sense. They seem worse! Going to WUSTL for free and doing as well as I can seems like the logical choice from here.

Clearly · Post by **Clearly** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:47 am

Yeah people are taking the tls hivemind too far here. As a 3.01 175+ white guy, I can tell you Chicago is almost certainly out, I might have gotten some (30k) to NU based on past years, and I ended up at a mid T14 near sticker. If you're debt averse and want to go to law school your hands are tied and you made the right move. The reality is that splitters (and you'll always be one, you can never get that GPA up enough to change that) are left with two options, meh schools with money or good schools at sticker. There is no sit out->improve something->better outcome, for us. If you don't want debt, take your option, if you decide you want biglaw consider sitting and reapplying.

Leonardo DiCaprio · Post by **Leonardo DiCaprio** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:36 pm

if you're not reapplying then id just go to WUSTL and drop out after 1L if your grades are top third or w/e. i guess coming out of wustl with 50~60k in debt isnt awful, but think of the opportunity cost.