Canadian CPA vs. Cdn Law School vs. T-14 Forum

[204Wpg]

Hey TLS experts!

I've got a question that has been asked only a few times before, and there's a couple of things that set my situation apart so I'd really like to get your opinions / advice on this fairly personal decision.

Currently, I am 22 and working at a Big 4 accounting firm, pursuing my CPA in a small-sized marketing in Canada (population ~ 800,000 people). The way things work here is I would be doing CPA while working for the next two years, and writing the final exam in September 2017 - ultimately having enough work experience to get my CPA around June 2018.

I however have just written the LSAT (predicting a score between 168 on the low end and 174 on the high end, unfortunately underperformed because I misread a rule, but such is life). I'm interested in a couple of options with what I've got right now.

First, a few stats: My cGPA using the LSAC conversion is 4.08 and for the OLSAS (Ontario) is 3.93 / 4. This puts me well above the 75th percentile at pretty much all schools in either country I believe. As mentioned above, LSAT between 168 - 174 (will update at the end of the month). Softs: slightly above average for a K-JD basically, but overall I'd say about average with a year worth of internships and not a year of full time work experience in accounting before the beginning of next school year. Also, some pretty good school involvement, volunteering, etc.

Here are what I'm considering doing:
1) Complete CPA, stay with B4 or move to industry. This option is what I had planned on doing until I caught the LSAT bug and started getting more interested in law school. I like the professional services line of work - ie. I think this experience has shown me that I would like BigLaw and the type of work done there. At the same time, I still really like this career path as well.

2) Apply for law school this cycle, stop the CPA, and go straight for a JD beginning in Fall 2016 (graduating spring 2019).
2a) Option one would be to go to law school here in Canada (ie. U of Toronto or U British Columbia) and then enter BigLaw either in Toronto or Vancouver or Calgary. I'm fairly confident that I would be able to get into any of these schools, though there's not really many merit scholarships up here, and tuition would be between $30,000 (U of T) or slightly less for BC.

2b) IF my LSAT comes out satisfactory (ie, 172+ for applying to HYS / CCN or preferably 174+ to have a shot at a Hamilton or Ruby) applying to T-14 schools and pursuing BigLaw down in the states. My big concern here being how being from Canada affects my job prospects coming out of law school down there in terms of immigration, etc.

3) Complete CPA then go for JD at one of the above schools. This seems like a lot of schooling to me, but obviously creates a unique skill set. The opportunity cost of law school also rises as by the time I finish CPA I'd be going into a year where I'd be making 75k or more, whereas now I'm in the 40k range.

4) Complete a JD / MBA at U of T. One additional year if memory serves me correct and about $50k more in tuition. This is appealing, but the idea of coming out of U of T with Harvard level debt is daunting.

Overall, I'm not debt-averse but I want to make sure if I'm going to be taking on $150 - $200k in student loans anywhere that I'm getting job prospects that will still allow me to live comfortably and not be crushed by debt repayment.

As I alluded to, my next 5 years of income look approximately like this: 42; 48; 53; 70; 75.

I have no debt, but also no savings. Thanks in advance for any advice you all have!

[twenty]

First off, figure out if you actually want to be an attorney. Talk to big firm attorneys in your area, see if this is something you want to do. How do you feel about their hours? Does their work sound interesting? Do that first.

Even if your LSAT score is in the 171~ range, you should still be competitive for a full ride to a lower T14. I can't imagine a Canadian native would have difficulty getting into a Toronto or Vancouver firm from somewhere like Cornell or Northwestern. But the trickiest part is that biglaw in the US pays a lot more than biglaw in Canada - so not only will you go to school for a lot less, but your job opportunities will probably be better, too.

Canadian law schools are fantastic for someone who's not in your situation. A lot of times it's someone trying to choose between UW, Indiana, and UBC, and then the answer is hands down UBC. Unless you have a strong desire to stay in accounting, I'd probably apply this year.

[abl]

I agree -- your first decision really needs to be about CPA vs attorney, and that's a pretty personal decision. My bet is that your debt to earnings prospects are better should you stick on your CPA path. But finances are obviously not the only (nor necessarily the most important) factor in decisions of this nature. How much do you like the job you have? How excited are you about doing work like this for the rest of your career? And how much do you know about biglaw? Personally, I'd take law over accounting any day without a hesitation, but I suspect my viewpoint is a minority viewpoint on this board. I happen to really enjoy what I do, but many lawyers don't.

If you decide you want to at least apply to law school (and know that once you start down that path, it's likely that you'll ultimately decide to go to law school -- it's much harder to turn down offers of admission and scholarships than it is to decide not to apply), then I'd probably apply to the top couple Cdn schools and the T14 (assuming you get an LSAT score in the range you expect) and see what happens. If you get into Yale, well, that potentially makes your decision easy. If, more likely, you end up with some choice between Toronto at $90k COA and Duke at $100k COA, well, then you have a harder choice (and in that case, it's probably worth thinking hard about where you'd like to practice, as Toronto will be far better for Canada practice whereas Duke will be far better for jobs in the US South). But there's no reason to agonize over these sorts of decisions now, because there's no reason not to apply to all of these schools now. If your stats are as you think they will be, you're sufficiently competitive to justify the application fee at any school in the US or Canada.

To quickly answer some of your other questions: no, being Canadian shouldn't hurt you for getting a US legal job (other than that you won't have any connection to any US market, but if you go to a T14 that's less of an issue); my sense is that the top Canadian law school or two are equivalent to mid-to-lower T14s, but given that they're often cheaper and in Canada, are probably a better bet than most similar schools if you want to practice in Canada; what's the reason to do a JD/MBA at Toronto?

[204Wpg]

Thanks a lot for your replies - both of you - those were very insightful.

One reason I'm considering JD/MBA is I really like the business side of things and am interested in mergers/acquisitions and other transaction-related work, whether I do law or CPA. So, I figured having an MBA alongside a JD would set me apart for jobs of this nature. The reason I only mentioned doing this at Toronto is they have a GMAT waiver for LSATs over 165 - and I don't have the time nor willpower to study for and write the GMAT so that was why I was considering that one specifically.

Again, thanks to you both for your assessments of my questions. I'm quite torn because following the CPA route I see myself enjoying the work I'm doing, but frankly I enjoy the nature of the work (ie. helping clients using a specialized body of knowledge) more so than the actual numbers based portion, which is why I think I might like Law more, while having greater earnings potential by becoming a lawyer.

[twenty]

I know at least one T14 school will waive the GMAT requirement for the JD/MBA (NYU comes to mind), and there may be others. Applicants don't realize this, but a lot of MBA programs will offer partial scholarships to JD/MBA students. Also, several US T14s offer three year JD/MBAs.

While I have no idea whether a UToronto MBA or a T10 US MBA would be better for getting an M&A job in Canada, I'd venture to guess they're equal at worst, with an edge to the US school.

[204Wpg]

I know at least one T14 school will waive the GMAT requirement for the JD/MBA (NYU comes to mind), and there may be others. Applicants don't realize this, but a lot of MBA programs will offer partial scholarships to JD/MBA students. Also, several US T14s offer three year JD/MBAs.

While I have no idea whether a UToronto MBA or a T10 US MBA would be better for getting an M&A job in Canada, I'd venture to guess they're equal at worst, with an edge to the US school.

I completely agree, that's a very good point. I've looked into some of the US ones, but never pursued them too far. I'll be sure to check them out prior to making any decisions.

[crazycanuck]

I was in your position in 2009, do my CPA at a big 4 or law school.

I went with the CPA (CA at the time I don't want to share my designation with those other animals) and it was an amazing decision for me.

My designation has given me opportunities and options that a law degree could have never given me. The big 4 experience, while shitty, does set you up nicely for a variety of options in industry and private practice.

It's actually really hard to talk about all the options it opens up. Accounting is such a diverse and wide ranging field, and a designation from the big 4 signals to employers that you are at the top of the industry. Most of my friends have long left big 4, and are doing lost of cool stuff. Some are doing accountingy stuff like financial reporting or tax, but not very many. A couple are in PE, one is at a VC, one does FX, another went to IB, some are doing internal audit/control/risk management (which is actually quite interesting), others are controllers at various sized companies, etc. one good friend to law school in Canada after he got his designation and he said he was hounded by the big bay St firms and got a higher signing bonus and first year salary than his classmates. Apparently it's quite rare but quite sought after.

My own story: after I got my designation I was hired to be the finance guy at a growing tech company. I was given mostly stock as there wasn't much cash. The company sold shortly after I got there (which was an awesome experience) and I made a good amount of money. I am now in a leadership position in sort of quasi govt company (it's a weird structure) doing the risk/control management, compliance, planning (strategic + budgeting/forecasting) and financial reporting. I'm between 4-7 years out of university, make about 120K, work 8-4:30ish every day, and get 7 weeks of vacation a year (that I fully take). The big 4 CPA route is IMO the best way to kickstart your career in Canada. I am far out earning my university friends and my friends from the big 4 are all around the same as me in comp.

IMO passing up an opportunity like a big 4 CPA for a law school dream is foolish. In Canada a CPA actually means something and signals to employers you are the fucking man. I had good stats, 3.8 and 176 and I haven't for a day regretted getting my CA instead.

[crazycanuck]

Also big 4s do have m&a groups if you want to stay on that path.

This isn't really a question. Do the CPA then reevaluate.

[Auxilio]

I cannot comment at all as to the CPA vs attorney decision, but as a Canadian who decided to go to an American law school there are a couple things to consider.

Really your two main Canadian options should be UofT or UBC in my mind (and McGill if you speak french). U of T has best employment, but UBC has good employment with much cheaper tuition (and you get to live in Vancouver).

As to American schools the only time it is likely to be worth it is if you get a significant scholarship (especially if you/family do not have a lot of money as the loans available are limited). Given your goals (and the fact you have a strong GPA reinforces this) I think I would put most of my effort on Penn/Chicago since they are the most likely to give good money and Wharton/Booth are both amazing for JD/MBAs. Harvard is the other obvious option but you have to be leery of the extra debt.

If you go to the states be prepared to work for at least a few years there. You will make much more money to pay off any loans etc., also going back to Canada you have to take some exams before you can article which allows you to study while working at a firm.

Another plus to going to the states and working for a bit is that while you still have to article coming with a few years experience in American big law it is "articling" mostly in name only.

Honestly going to a top American school with a big scholarship is probably the best outcome for Canadians if they are willing to spend some time in the states.

[204Wpg]

Thanks crazycanuck and Auxilio!

I appreciate both of your viewpoints - that helps me a lot. I think I'm in a mindset where if I happen to do well enough on the LSAT to be competitive for a full ride at T-14, I'll likely apply and re-evaluate after I see if anything comes in, but I think that's the only situation in which I would ditch CPA to go do law school - otherwise I'll likely complete the CPA and go from there; whether law school comes after that or another designation in finance / valuations / tax.

I have concluded that I'm not interested in paying 100's of thousands of dollars right now to go do law school when I could be getting paid to do my CPA - especially given the fact I do actually enjoy working at B4 so far and I see myself doing quite well throughout the CPA.

[crazycanuck]

Thanks crazycanuck and Auxilio!

I appreciate both of your viewpoints - that helps me a lot. I think I'm in a mindset where if I happen to do well enough on the LSAT to be competitive for a full ride at T-14, I'll likely apply and re-evaluate after I see if anything comes in, but I think that's the only situation in which I would ditch CPA to go do law school - otherwise I'll likely complete the CPA and go from there; whether law school comes after that or another designation in finance / valuations / tax.

I have concluded that I'm not interested in paying 100's of thousands of dollars right now to go do law school when I could be getting paid to do my CPA - especially given the fact I do actually enjoy working at B4 so far and I see myself doing quite well throughout the CPA.

Have you posted this question on http://www.lawstudents.ca?

Last I checked, the general consensus there from Canadian lawyers is that a US law degree is not helpful in Canada. If you go to law school in the states, be prepared to stay there. Unless it's HYS apparently Canadian law firms prefer Canadian law school grads. The prestige gets lost in Canada. You would lose your alumni network in Canada. Also from what I recall about the NCA exams, they are a bitch to do and if you're trying to do them while doing M&A in biglaw... good luck. See if you can find someone who has done the NCA exams and ask about it.

Also ask people around here what M&A lawyers do and see if you'd like it. There's lots of people around here who talk very openly about it. Frankly I think it's silly to ditch the CPA route as this point for anything, especially considering you like it.

[Phil Brooks]

Thanks crazycanuck and Auxilio!

I appreciate both of your viewpoints - that helps me a lot. I think I'm in a mindset where if I happen to do well enough on the LSAT to be competitive for a full ride at T-14, I'll likely apply and re-evaluate after I see if anything comes in, but I think that's the only situation in which I would ditch CPA to go do law school - otherwise I'll likely complete the CPA and go from there; whether law school comes after that or another designation in finance / valuations / tax.

I have concluded that I'm not interested in paying 100's of thousands of dollars right now to go do law school when I could be getting paid to do my CPA - especially given the fact I do actually enjoy working at B4 so far and I see myself doing quite well throughout the CPA.

Have you posted this question on http://www.lawstudents.ca?

Last I checked, the general consensus there from Canadian lawyers is that a US law degree is not helpful in Canada. If you go to law school in the states, be prepared to stay there. Unless it's HYS apparently Canadian law firms prefer Canadian law school grads. The prestige gets lost in Canada. You would lose your alumni network in Canada. Also from what I recall about the NCA exams, they are a bitch to do and if you're trying to do them while doing M&A in biglaw... good luck. See if you can find someone who has done the NCA exams and ask about it.

Also ask people around here what M&A lawyers do and see if you'd like it. There's lots of people around here who talk very openly about it. Frankly I think it's silly to ditch the CPA route as this point for anything, especially considering you like it.

This is the only correct advice on this thread. The first thing to decide is which country do you want to live in. It is better to be in Canada, having gone to U of T; it is better to be in the US, having gone to HYS.

Anything you can do in Canada coming from HYS, you can do coming from U of T, at a much lower price and with the benefit of having built a network in Canada.

You cannot hedge forever. Prestige does not insulate you from the need to make real choices. Decide your country first, then the law school.

[204Wpg]

Thanks crazycanuck and Auxilio!

I appreciate both of your viewpoints - that helps me a lot. I think I'm in a mindset where if I happen to do well enough on the LSAT to be competitive for a full ride at T-14, I'll likely apply and re-evaluate after I see if anything comes in, but I think that's the only situation in which I would ditch CPA to go do law school - otherwise I'll likely complete the CPA and go from there; whether law school comes after that or another designation in finance / valuations / tax.

I have concluded that I'm not interested in paying 100's of thousands of dollars right now to go do law school when I could be getting paid to do my CPA - especially given the fact I do actually enjoy working at B4 so far and I see myself doing quite well throughout the CPA.

Have you posted this question on http://www.lawstudents.ca?

Last I checked, the general consensus there from Canadian lawyers is that a US law degree is not helpful in Canada. If you go to law school in the states, be prepared to stay there. Unless it's HYS apparently Canadian law firms prefer Canadian law school grads. The prestige gets lost in Canada. You would lose your alumni network in Canada. Also from what I recall about the NCA exams, they are a bitch to do and if you're trying to do them while doing M&A in biglaw... good luck. See if you can find someone who has done the NCA exams and ask about it.

Also ask people around here what M&A lawyers do and see if you'd like it. There's lots of people around here who talk very openly about it. Frankly I think it's silly to ditch the CPA route as this point for anything, especially considering you like it.

This is the only correct advice on this thread. The first thing to decide is which country do you want to live in. It is better to be in Canada, having gone to U of T; it is better to be in the US, having gone to HYS.

Anything you can do in Canada coming from HYS, you can do coming from U of T, at a much lower price and with the benefit of having built a network in Canada.

You cannot hedge forever. Prestige does not insulate you from the need to make real choices. Decide your country first, then the law school.

Thanks for this, I have heard about the NCA exams and how troublesome they can be (most people around lawstudents.ca seem to think they take almost a year to complete). I'm fairly certain I won't be coming back to Canada to work should I go to school in the US, and I'm okay with that. I'm actually quite indifferent as to which country I live in, as I know I won't be living in my small hometown regardless of which path I choose. My main goal is to work and have opportunities in a bigger city (ie. Toronto, New York, Chicago), but I definitely appreciate you clearing up the difficulty of going to school in one and then deciding to work in the other.

[Phil Brooks]

Thanks crazycanuck and Auxilio!

I appreciate both of your viewpoints - that helps me a lot. I think I'm in a mindset where if I happen to do well enough on the LSAT to be competitive for a full ride at T-14, I'll likely apply and re-evaluate after I see if anything comes in, but I think that's the only situation in which I would ditch CPA to go do law school - otherwise I'll likely complete the CPA and go from there; whether law school comes after that or another designation in finance / valuations / tax.

I have concluded that I'm not interested in paying 100's of thousands of dollars right now to go do law school when I could be getting paid to do my CPA - especially given the fact I do actually enjoy working at B4 so far and I see myself doing quite well throughout the CPA.

Have you posted this question on http://www.lawstudents.ca?

Last I checked, the general consensus there from Canadian lawyers is that a US law degree is not helpful in Canada. If you go to law school in the states, be prepared to stay there. Unless it's HYS apparently Canadian law firms prefer Canadian law school grads. The prestige gets lost in Canada. You would lose your alumni network in Canada. Also from what I recall about the NCA exams, they are a bitch to do and if you're trying to do them while doing M&A in biglaw... good luck. See if you can find someone who has done the NCA exams and ask about it.

Also ask people around here what M&A lawyers do and see if you'd like it. There's lots of people around here who talk very openly about it. Frankly I think it's silly to ditch the CPA route as this point for anything, especially considering you like it.

This is the only correct advice on this thread. The first thing to decide is which country do you want to live in. It is better to be in Canada, having gone to U of T; it is better to be in the US, having gone to HYS.

Anything you can do in Canada coming from HYS, you can do coming from U of T, at a much lower price and with the benefit of having built a network in Canada.

You cannot hedge forever. Prestige does not insulate you from the need to make real choices. Decide your country first, then the law school.

Thanks for this, I have heard about the NCA exams and how troublesome they can be (most people around lawstudents.ca seem to think they take almost a year to complete). I'm fairly certain I won't be coming back to Canada to work should I go to school in the US, and I'm okay with that. I'm actually quite indifferent as to which country I live in, as I know I won't be living in my small hometown regardless of which path I choose. My main goal is to work and have opportunities in a bigger city (ie. Toronto, New York, Chicago), but I definitely appreciate you clearing up the difficulty of going to school in one and then deciding to work in the other.

Good luck. And please remember to vote!

[CanadianWolf]

Your LSAT score will be an important factor affecting your options. Assuming a score on the low end of your expectations, then you should continue in your current position & earn your CPA designation. Retaking the LSAT at a later date will not hurt your candidacy for US schools--plus you'll have more work experience. Please remember that one's LSAT is much more important for US law schools than for Canadian law schools.

If you score a 173 or above, then you should apply to any T-14 law schools which are of interest to you. Assess your options after receiving all decisions & scholarship offers.

In short, without your actual LSAT score, it's a bit early to give advice of a specific nature, in my opinion.

[204Wpg]

Your LSAT score will be an important factor affecting your options. Assuming a score on the low end of your expectations, then you should continue in your current position & earn your CPA designation. Retaking the LSAT at a later date will not hurt your candidacy for US schools--plus you'll have more work experience. Please remember that one's LSAT is much more important for US law schools than for Canadian law schools.

If you score a 173 or above, then you should apply to any T-14 law schools which are of interest to you. Assess your options after receiving all decisions & scholarship offers.

In short, without your actual LSAT score, it's a bit early to give advice of a specific nature, in my opinion.

Thanks for the input - I agree that without having received the score it's a bit early, but at the same time I sort of need to decide which schools I'll be applying to prior to receiving the scotr (U of Toronto for example has a deadline of November 1) - which is why I was looking for some input prior to receiving a score.

[CanadianWolf]

Definitely apply to Toronto & UBC--especially since grades are more important than one's LSAT score for Canadian law schools.