Where to go to law school? No real ties or preferences. Forum

mroperator · Post by **mroperator** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:52 am

So, I really am wondering where I should go to law school, or where I should aim for/apply to. I'm taking the LSAT in October, PT low 160's. I'd love to be able to get up around 167-168 so that I might have a semblance of a chance at t14 with my 3.68 GPA. But I've been reading about law schools for months now, and I keep hearing that t14 is where you want to go for biglaw. Now, being a senior in undergrad I really don't know exactly what all that would entail, but I don't know that I really care about biglaw very much. I might be willing to try it to see what it's like. Also, I really don't have any states where I absolutely want to work. I mean, I grew up in the southeast, but my dad moves around a lot and my sister is out in California, and my SO is in Ohio for grad work (he can pretty much relocate to anywhere once he finishes.) Basically, I just want a good law education that will enable me to think critically about my citizenship and responsibilities/rights entailed therein, and to help others do the same. I like the idea of being able to work abroad even. So, does anyone have any advice? Requests for further clarification?

UpandDown97 · Post by **UpandDown97** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:54 am

mroperator wrote:So, I really am wondering where I should go to law school, or where I should aim for/apply to. I'm taking the LSAT in October, PT low 160's. I'd love to be able to get up around 167-168 so that I might have a semblance of a chance at t14 with my 3.68 GPA. But I've been reading about law schools for months now, and I keep hearing that t14 is where you want to go for biglaw. Now, being a senior in undergrad I really don't know exactly what all that would entail, but I don't know that I really care about biglaw very much. I might be willing to try it to see what it's like. Also, I really don't have any states where I absolutely want to work. I mean, I grew up in the southeast, but my dad moves around a lot and my sister is out in California, and my SO is in Ohio for grad work (he can pretty much relocate to anywhere once he finishes.) Basically, I just want a good law education that will enable me to think critically about my citizenship and responsibilities/rights entailed therein, and to help others do the same. I like the idea of being able to work abroad even. So, does anyone have any advice? Requests for further clarification?

Why even go to law school? It sounds like academia might be more your preferred route.

mroperator · Post by **mroperator** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:09 am

Fair question. I guess it just boils down to me not really being interested in the academic world. I want to be a part of the real world, and do real people things. Also, I think law is really interesting and I think I could do really well at it. Furthermore, wouldn't having a law degree be useful if I decide to pursue the academic side of law in the future?

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:41 am

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mroperator · Post by **mroperator** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:37 am

MistakenGenius wrote:I do like that you seem very open minded. I really think you need to do some more reading on this site before making any decisions. Law School is a huge expense, even with a full ride (due to living expenses and opportunity costs), and you don't want to go into that without being 100% certain that that's what you want to do. If you're completely loaded then it's less of an issue, but I don't think thinking critically about your citizenship is enough of a goal to undertake that much debt. Define real people things? I'm concerned that lawyers do not generally do what you think they do.

As for whether or not a JD with help you in Academia, it depends highly on what you mean. If you mean normal undergraduate level teaching, probably not. A PHD in your chosen field would serve you far better in that regard(and by that, I mean it's basically mandatory). I don't think the JD would give you any real added value. If you mean the Academic side of the legal field (ie: teaching at a law school), then yeah, a JD is basically mandatory. But unfortunately, because it is such an incredible job (great hours, good pay, great job security), it's extremely competitive. Basically, it's so competitive that it's only a real possibility from Yale, Harvard, and Stanford (and maybe Chicago) and only realistic (though still tough to get) from Yale. You might be able to get into Harvard with a 175+ LSAT (the other three focus too much on GPA), but that's definitely not enough reason to go there unless it's definitely what you want to do. Do some research and find out what you want to do. You will almost certainly be better off working for a couple years while you figure it out. Good luck and all the best to you!

I appreciate your perspective on all this, and your warnings regarding law school. I wonder, since you recommend reading more on this site if you have some specific threads in mind?

I'm certainly not married to academic law, in fact I have no expectations of really being able to pursue it since, as you noted, it's terribly competitive. I really don't have a field that I'm interested enough in to attempt a phd. As far as what I'm want to do with my life, I have no expectations of being able to answer that question with any certainty. I guess I just think of anything else I'd rather be doing, so I might as well do law. Sorry if my perspective seems flaky, but I promise I'm not a flaky guy.

gnomgnomuch · Post by **gnomgnomuch** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:41 am

mroperator wrote:Fair question. I guess it just boils down to me not really being interested in the academic world. I want to be a part of the real world, and do real people things. Also, I think law is really interesting and I think I could do really well at it. Furthermore, wouldn't having a law degree be useful if I decide to pursue the academic side of law in the future?

A Ph.D can be used for a lot more than just being an academic. It's frowned upon, and career services might not be too great, but if you go to a good school for your doctorate, and you do something policy related, you wouldn't have many issues finding jobs in non-profits/PI/government. Granted, Ph.D's are still primarily considered academic degrees, but you're not limited to solely academic work.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:08 am

gnomgnomuch wrote:
mroperator wrote:Fair question. I guess it just boils down to me not really being interested in the academic world. I want to be a part of the real world, and do real people things. Also, I think law is really interesting and I think I could do really well at it. Furthermore, wouldn't having a law degree be useful if I decide to pursue the academic side of law in the future?

A Ph.D can be used for a lot more than just being an academic. It's frowned upon, and career services might not be too great, but if you go to a good school for your doctorate, and you do something policy related, you wouldn't have many issues finding jobs in non-profits/PI/government. Granted, Ph.D's are still primarily considered academic degrees, but you're not limited to solely academic work.

Yeah, I don't really agree with this - it's kind of like the "a J.D. is versatile" thing. Many Ph.D.s go on to get non-academic work, but there aren't many non-academic situations in which one is actually required, and it can be extremely difficult to get that first non-academic job. Once you do, things get a lot easier, but getting a Ph.D. takes you out of the work force for a decent chunk of time, and it can be very hard to convince employers that you actually don't want an academic job. There are ways to mitigate this, and fields where this is less/more true, but I would not get a PhD for a non-academic line of work unless you know very clearly going in what you want to do and how the degree is going to get you there, and are very strong-minded about how to turn the degree to that end. (PhD programs are notoriously bad about training people do do this.)

To put it another way - just because there are a lot of people in policy who have PhDs does not mean that getting a PhD is a way to get into policy. It's like the reasoning when people show up here saying "there are a lot of politicians with JDs, and I want to get into politics, so I'm going to get a JD."

benwyatt · Post by **benwyatt** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:15 am

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basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21 am

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mroperator · Post by **mroperator** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:02 pm

basedvulpes wrote:
benwyatt wrote:
mroperator wrote:

I'm certainly not married to academic law, in fact I have no expectations of really being able to pursue it since, as you noted, it's terribly competitive. I really don't have a field that I'm interested enough in to attempt a phd. As far as what I'm want to do with my life, I have no expectations of being able to answer that question with any certainty. I guess I just think of anything else I'd rather be doing, so I might as well do law. Sorry if my perspective seems flaky, but I promise I'm not a flaky guy.
This is why you shouldn't go to law school, not yet at least.
You're only a senior in UG so you have plenty of time to go if you decide that's what you want to do, but I'd recommend taking some time off first. To that end, I wouldn't even bother taking the October LSAT because you can probably get a better score if you give yourself more time to study and it will give you more time to decide if law is actually what you want.
I don't think you're flaky, but law school is expensive and not something to be entered into just because you don't know what else to do.
+1, don't underestimate the value of taking some time off. I've only been out for a year and half, but my perspective on the world and what I want to do has changed so much in that time. Go try to do something, anything, and see what you think of it. It might help you confirm that law school is the right path, or it might lead you to try other things. Either way you'll be more sure that you're doing the right thing.

Thanks for not mentioning my glaring typos everyone, I'm typing on mobile between classes. I do like the idea of taking some time off honestly, I just worry that things will start to get away from me and I will give up on my dreams. I know thats silly on a certain level, because if my dreams change then what's the harm in not doing what I dreamt of before. I guess it's just easy to get caught up in the flow of things. I already spent a year abroad during high school and after high school just kind of fucking around figuring out who I am and what I want to do. So I feel like I should start actually doing it now.

AReasonableMan · Post by **AReasonableMan** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:36 pm

For academia, you have to be a leading scholar. Just getting into a t-14 will be no where near adequate. Law is going to be very much a service based occupation wherever you go. If you're going to big law you're likely going to have to be comfortable looking at charts and confusingly drafted statutes and apply these to your client's situation to give them advice. If you're going to another type of law you're probably going to be making much less (still a ramen noodle budget in many cities), and be comfortable zealously advocating for your client in whatever other area of law you specialize in. While there are many intellectuals in law, you should consider yourself to be more of a hired gun than a free spirit free to learn about whatever you choose.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:49 pm

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basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:03 pm

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mroperator · Post by **mroperator** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:00 pm

Wow! I gotta say, I'm very pleased by everyone's responses to me. I haven't heard many complimentary things about the TLS forums, but you're good people. Thanks for all the different article/book suggestions, and all the other things for me to consider. I'm definitely thinking I should try to work for a lawyer/firm for a while to see if it's the kind of work I would enjoy. Another question: how tough is it to become a judge? Not a federal Supreme Court judge(I know that's impossible), but you know, state/local level maybe? It seems like a rewarding thing to do, but again, I don't know much about it.

gnomgnomuch · Post by **gnomgnomuch** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:15 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
gnomgnomuch wrote:
mroperator wrote:Fair question. I guess it just boils down to me not really being interested in the academic world. I want to be a part of the real world, and do real people things. Also, I think law is really interesting and I think I could do really well at it. Furthermore, wouldn't having a law degree be useful if I decide to pursue the academic side of law in the future?

A Ph.D can be used for a lot more than just being an academic. It's frowned upon, and career services might not be too great, but if you go to a good school for your doctorate, and you do something policy related, you wouldn't have many issues finding jobs in non-profits/PI/government. Granted, Ph.D's are still primarily considered academic degrees, but you're not limited to solely academic work.
Yeah, I don't really agree with this - it's kind of like the "a J.D. is versatile" thing. Many Ph.D.s go on to get non-academic work, but there aren't many non-academic situations in which one is actually required, and it can be extremely difficult to get that first non-academic job. Once you do, things get a lot easier, but getting a Ph.D. takes you out of the work force for a decent chunk of time, and it can be very hard to convince employers that you actually don't want an academic job. There are ways to mitigate this, and fields where this is less/more true, but I would not get a PhD for a non-academic line of work unless you know very clearly going in what you want to do and how the degree is going to get you there, and are very strong-minded about how to turn the degree to that end. (PhD programs are notoriously bad about training people do do this.)

To put it another way - just because there are a lot of people in policy who have PhDs does not mean that getting a PhD is a way to get into policy. It's like the reasoning when people show up here saying "there are a lot of politicians with JDs, and I want to get into politics, so I'm going to get a JD."

To be sure the main reason to get a Ph.D IS to get into academia. I'd also say it depends under the circumstances in which you get your Ph.D. If you have a solid amount of work experience and connections in the field, a Ph.D would be able to open up doors for you that otherwise wouldn't be available. However, chances are that a masters would do the same exact thing. I didn't mean get a Ph.D to get into policy... I was just saying that you're not pigeonholed into academia.

If OP want's to get into policy, he should get an MPP/MPA.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:54 pm

See, I think a PhD does pigeonhole you for academia, in the same way that a JD pigeonholes you for law. You can get around that piegeonholing, and I agree that it can be something that opens doors in certain fields, but I think that's rarer than people think. Or I guess I'd say, if you're actually in a job and you know that to get the next job in that field you need a PhD (or JD), that makes sense. I just don't think that describes the OP or most people on TLS.

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:57 pm

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timbs4339 · Post by **timbs4339** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:18 pm

mroperator wrote:Wow! I gotta say, I'm very pleased by everyone's responses to me. I haven't heard many complimentary things about the TLS forums, but you're good people. Thanks for all the different article/book suggestions, and all the other things for me to consider. I'm definitely thinking I should try to work for a lawyer/firm for a while to see if it's the kind of work I would enjoy. Another question: how tough is it to become a judge? Not a federal Supreme Court judge(I know that's impossible), but you know, state/local level maybe? It seems like a rewarding thing to do, but again, I don't know much about it.

Every state, indeed every locality, is different. One way it works in mine (major state, big city) is that you can start out working for the judicial system in some capacity (maybe after a few years in a different government organization). Eventually, you may rise through the ranks to a position where you come to the attention of relevant decision-makers in a political party who can then sponsor you for election to judicial office, usually beginning at the bottom in civil, housing, or criminal court. You will need to spend more than a decade working for the court system before you will even be considered to be nominated. As other judges retire you can then move up to the main trial level court, and perhaps the appeals court.

There are of course other ways to come to the attention of those decision-makers - being a high-level lawyer in a different government organization (again, decades of working up the chain at the same job) or being a successful lawyer who is very active in the dominant local party.

AT9 · Post by **AT9** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:15 pm

As someone who had a similar lack of strong ties to any specific place with a legal market to speak of and who just went through OCI, you should really shoot for a T14. Your lack of convincing ties/preferences will make you less attractive to interviewers, so going to a prestigious school is one of your best bets to make up for it.

If not, and if you still do law school, go to a T1 or decent T2 (with $$$$) in the state or city where you have the best ties. Going to a random Southeastern school because you're sort of from the Southeast may not cut it. I.e., if your strongest ties are in Atlanta (and you can't get a T14 or Vandy), you should really only go to UGA, Emory, or maybe GA State. If Birmingham, Bama should be the only contender. You'll have more difficulty getting back to those markets from a UNC, UF, Tulane, etc., and you'll have a tough time in their markets as well unless you have decent ties.