Ridiculously stupid question re: tuition and choosing a school. Forum

[moscerina]

Hi guys!

I am an American but am foreign-trained in law (qualified in the a European country, where I have been working at a prestigious European firm for 3.5 years). At some point in the future, I am looking to sit the bar in my home state of New York so that I can have dual qualification, both within the EU and back home. Also, keep in mind that "prestigious" in this EU country doesn't mean much in terms of earnings compared to Big Law or successful NY firms: a lawyer in my country might earn half or even less of what an equivalently experienced and qualified person in NYC would.

My question is this: I'm looking at potentially trying to shoot for an Ivy or at the very least Brooklyn, Fordham or NYU but I'm not sure what I can expect re: tuition. I have to admit I've been spoiled thus far as I paid EU tuition rates, thus the huge case of sticker shock when googling this. I've also come up with lots of info about Ivies giving very generous scholarships and/or tuition packages for those who make under a certain amount of money. I'm just not sure if this also applies to law school. Of course I'm not sure I would even get in, but I need to know whether or not they might help me out financially. I'm not asking for a full ride in the least, just maybe something to soften the blow.

I'd love to attend a US school because it will make me more employable abroad should I choose to switch firms, but I absolutely do not want to live my life beholden to $60,000 in student loans no matter how good my prospects are.

Can anyone help me out on this? Thanks!

[moscerina]

One more thing:

Piggybacking on my original post, I'd also like to specify that I don't necessarily need the LLM to work in another firm and stay corporate forever. I'm just as happy working in policy for a government organization or in research. Academia would be a fine choice as well as secretly I would love to work in legal research; I'm open to all avenues an LLM would open for me, and I'd even be open to doing a PhD in Europe.

My specialization lies in IP law and competition law, and I speak English, Italian, Dutch, Spanish and French fluently. I am a dual US-Italian national. That might give you guys some more information when recommending schools.

Thank you.

[xael]

If LLMs are getting tuition breaks I'm going to cut someone

[moscerina]

Thanks...?

That still doesn't answer my question. I've googled and googled to no avail, so I was hoping someone here might be able to provide more info.

[anyriotgirl]

The whole point of llms is that they pay crazy tuition

Also lol 60k

[moscerina]

Okay. I didn't come here for snark, but I appreciate it all the same.

I'm asking about what--if any--financial aid there is available for U.S. citizens looking to obtain an LL.M. and, barring that, if there are any U.S. programs that are looked upon favorably abroad.

[Instinctive]

Okay. I didn't come here for snark, but I appreciate it all the same.

I'm asking about what--if any--financial aid there is available for U.S. citizens looking to obtain an LL.M. and, barring that, if there are any U.S. programs that are looked upon favorably abroad.

I don't know a ton about the program, aside from talking with our LLMs, so take this with a grain of salt.

If you've been working as an attorney for 3.5 years, you're unlikely to get much need-based aid. Do you not have savings to get by for a year after working for more than 3 years as an attorney?

I'm unaware of what, if any, merit aid options exist for LLMs, but my gut reaction is that merit would be a far better bet. Although, again, very limited knowledge base here.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The whole point of llms is that they pay crazy tuition

Also lol 60k

I had the same reaction, but then remembered an LLM is only one year, which makes it sound a little less of a bargain.

But OP, yes, it's commonly understood that LLM programs are nice sources of income for law schools, as it's usually international students paying cash. Your best bet is calling up the schools you're considering and asking them directly, I suspect. The thing about Ivies being very generous with need aid is largely an undergrad phenomenon - HYS do offer need-based aid to law students (in fact, it's the only kind of aid they offer), but it's capped at a certain amount and if you've been working for a prestigious European firm you may not qualify for much. Most other top schools offer mostly merit-based aid - I don't know whether there is the same interest in using financial aid to attract top students to LLM programs as there is for JD programs. You may want to ask schools what percentage of their LLMs are receiving merit aid.

As for which schools - people here have frequently commented that it's really only the very top law schools here that have name recognition abroad; I don't know how true that is, but keep in mind that there are something like 200 US law schools, so it makes sense that people in other countries aren't going to be spending any time keeping most of them straight. I really don't think Brooklyn is what you want and I don't know that Fordham has international name recognition either.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you want to be able to sit the bar exam in NY, you don't need to do your LLM in NY - you just need to do an LLM at an ABA-approved school. (I wasn't sure if you were listing only NY schools b/c you wanted to be in NY or believed you had to be in NY.)

[TheSpanishMain]

Saying an Ivy or "Brooklyn, Fordham or NYU" is...strange. Maybe it doesn't matter because you already have a job and you just want to be able to sit for the NY bar, but "the Ivy League" isn't really a thing in law schools. NYU is certainly an excellent school. Fordham is a maybe sort of decent school at a deep discount. Brooklyn is a dumpster fire. Again, maybe this doesn't really matter for you, but you may want to do some more digging on US law schools.

[krads153]

Saying an Ivy or "Brooklyn, Fordham or NYU" is...strange. Maybe it doesn't matter because you already have a job and you just want to be able to sit for the NY bar, but "the Ivy League" isn't really a thing in law schools. NYU is certainly an excellent school. Fordham is a maybe sort of decent school at a deep discount. Brooklyn is a dumpster fire. Again, maybe this doesn't really matter for you, but you may want to do some more digging on US law schools.

Yeah, wtf. Maybe this person thinks any NYC law school will guarantee a NYC job? NOT THE CASE at all.

[chicharon]

Post removed...

[moscerina]

Okay. I didn't come here for snark, but I appreciate it all the same.

I'm asking about what--if any--financial aid there is available for U.S. citizens looking to obtain an LL.M. and, barring that, if there are any U.S. programs that are looked upon favorably abroad.

I don't know a ton about the program, aside from talking with our LLMs, so take this with a grain of salt.

If you've been working as an attorney for 3.5 years, you're unlikely to get much need-based aid. Do you not have savings to get by for a year after working for more than 3 years as an attorney?

I'm unaware of what, if any, merit aid options exist for LLMs, but my gut reaction is that merit would be a far better bet. Although, again, very limited knowledge base here.

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I don't have a decent amount of savings. I would kill for them, but I help support my disabled mother back in New York while I am living abroad. She doesn't have many years left - unfortunately - and so I'm making her life as comfortable as I can while I am not living in NY.

[moscerina]

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you want to be able to sit the bar exam in NY, you don't need to do your LLM in NY - you just need to do an LLM at an ABA-approved school. (I wasn't sure if you were listing only NY schools b/c you wanted to be in NY or believed you had to be in NY.)

Thanks for the reply! I know you don't have to be in NY to sit the bar there. I just mentioned NY because I was born and raised in NYC and my family lives there, thus the lack of need for paying for housing. It was just a thought.

[moscerina]

Why not just skip the LLM and sit for the NY bar?

Unfortunately I can't. I am foreign-qualified and not in a common law system.

[moscerina]

Saying an Ivy or "Brooklyn, Fordham or NYU" is...strange. Maybe it doesn't matter because you already have a job and you just want to be able to sit for the NY bar, but "the Ivy League" isn't really a thing in law schools. NYU is certainly an excellent school. Fordham is a maybe sort of decent school at a deep discount. Brooklyn is a dumpster fire. Again, maybe this doesn't really matter for you, but you may want to do some more digging on US law schools.

Thanks for the reply. I don't know much about Brooklyn Law save for the fact that every single person I know who went there has an excellent job. The country where I am currently located looks very favorably upon NY LLMs no matter where they were obtained, as business with NY is very common in my neck of the woods (having an in-depth knowledge of NY law is an asset where I live).

[moscerina]

Saying an Ivy or "Brooklyn, Fordham or NYU" is...strange. Maybe it doesn't matter because you already have a job and you just want to be able to sit for the NY bar, but "the Ivy League" isn't really a thing in law schools. NYU is certainly an excellent school. Fordham is a maybe sort of decent school at a deep discount. Brooklyn is a dumpster fire. Again, maybe this doesn't really matter for you, but you may want to do some more digging on US law schools.

Yeah, wtf. Maybe this person thinks any NYC law school will guarantee a NYC job? NOT THE CASE at all.

"This person."

How rude. I don't know, there's something about this forum: you all either had someone pee in your Wheaties this morning or most of you are just snippy!

Nowhere did I say that going to any NYC school would guarantee me a job. I said that obtaining an LLM would make my profile more competitive in the country in which I live, and that I wanted to attend school in NY because New York is my home state. But, by all means, if you want to snark go ahead.

[TheSpanishMain]

Saying an Ivy or "Brooklyn, Fordham or NYU" is...strange. Maybe it doesn't matter because you already have a job and you just want to be able to sit for the NY bar, but "the Ivy League" isn't really a thing in law schools. NYU is certainly an excellent school. Fordham is a maybe sort of decent school at a deep discount. Brooklyn is a dumpster fire. Again, maybe this doesn't really matter for you, but you may want to do some more digging on US law schools.

Thanks for the reply. I don't know much about Brooklyn Law save for the fact that every single person I know who went there has an excellent job. The country where I am currently located looks very favorably upon NY LLMs no matter where they were obtained, as business with NY is very common in my neck of the woods (having an in-depth knowledge of NY law is an asset where I live).

Understandable. As I said, this may not apply to you as much...I know next to nothing about LLMs, so I'm just extrapolating from the reputation of the JD program.

[moscerina]

No worries!

Thanks for the help.

I was just informed that I can sit the CA bar by taking Washington University's online LLM. Then I can waive into DC which has reciprocity with NY, thus saving me the hassle of moving back to the US for a year.

Can anyone confirm whether or not Washington University is a good school? I'm willing to forgo studying in NY if it might be worth it to do it this way. Thanks all... if anyone needs help with European law schools I'm your gal! It feels so weird being American and not knowing about American law schools.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Is there a reason you'd have to start with the CA bar and then go DC/NY, rather than sitting the bar in NY directly?

[moscerina]

Yes. Since I am trained in a civil law country and not a common law country I have two options, as far as I can tell:

If I want to be able to sit the NY bar immediately I will need to move to the US for a year and attend an in person LL.M. as the NY bar will not recognize online LL.M.s as fulfilling the educational requirements. This doesn't necessarily mean that I will have to return to NY for school, but it means I will have to pay for tuition as well as housing. This could end up being quite expensive. I was trying to focus on NY schools as I still have family in NY and might be able to stay with them for free during the course.

If I want to save money, but not necessarily sit the NY bar immediately I can take a reputable (read: ABA-accredited) online LL.M. and sit the CA bar, which does recognize online courses. NY does not. This could be cost effective as it will allow me to continue living in this country which is significantly cheaper (housing costs me about 400 euros a month here, affordable healthcare, etc.).

So I either move back to the U.S. for a year and be able to sit the NY bar, or I take an online LL.M., take the CA bar, waive into DC and then benefit from reciprocity with NY. I think it'd be kind of cool to have certification in CA, DC and NY.

[xael]

I still think this is dumb.

[twenty]

How much are you willing to spend? If we're talking below 40-50k, most on-campus LLM programs are going to be out, period.

I'd probably lean more towards an on campus program. So NYC?

e: I'd imagine an online LLM is probably just as expensive, so really the only savings you end up with is on the housing front. Not worth it.

[moscerina]

I still think this is dumb.

Barring going to law school for 3 years, this is the only way I could qualify in the US. I don't recall asking you for your opinion anyway.

[moscerina]

How much are you willing to spend? If we're talking below 40-50k, most on-campus LLM programs are going to be out, period.

I'd probably lean more towards an on campus program. So NYC?

e: I'd imagine an online LLM is probably just as expensive, so really the only savings you end up with is on the housing front. Not worth it.

I think I'm only leaning towards the online LLM because of being able to work full time while doing it, and because of saving money re: housing. I have a lot to think about. Thanks, guys.