What to do? Forum

[Ljgwood]

Hopefully this is the best place for this question. I am currently UG graduating in December. My gpa is 3.85, but my LSAT is average. I've taken it twice. My first take was this Feb. I scored mid 160s (somewhat less than my average). I retook in June, after wasting time on a Kaplan (higher score or your $$$$ back) course. I increased my score by 1 point. So no $$$$ back and still mid 160s. The last pt I took before the actual test was 169, and I had been consistently between 168-172, so I know I'm capable of better.

I plan to go ahead and send apps in Sept just to see what happens. I have a retake left, but to graduate in Dec, I'm taking 21 hours (also have PT job) so it would be useless to retake before Feb. as I would have no time to prep. The schools I'm considering applying to are WUSTL, Vandy, W&M, Georgia, Emory, etc...(basically south-southeastern schools in the 15-30ish range that have decent job placement numbers) maybe a couple of west coast schools too, I have family in Northern California. TBH, I have no interest in BigLaw, so even if I were to score higher on the retake, idk that my school choices would change too much. I'd prefer to live and work in the southeast.

Financially, I have a fairly good situation. I have a college fund that my grandparents started when I was born. I've never had to touch it, and right now there is enough to pay for one year at almost any school. I also have a savings acct that I've had since HS that will come close to paying a year's living expenses. I've looked at LSN, and it appears some people with similar numbers to mine have gotten decent money at a few of the schools I'm considering. So, if it turns out that I get enough $ that I don't need loans (or at least that I need to borrow relatively little) should I still retake? Would a Feb retake be too late to make any difference in the amount I'm offered anyway? I have one semester's experience at a small local law firm, and I'm hoping to get more experience between Dec graduation and Sept '16. So idk if I would be considered K-JD or not, if that matters. I really don't want to sit out until Fall '17. Thoughts?

[Clemenceau]

Well you should be in fine shape for the schools you mentioned. Hard to say much about $ because you didn't specify what your lsat is.

That being said, you have a gpa that a place like duke would love to have. If you bump that lsat up a bit you could get an acceptance and $ to duke. That, combined with your savings, could easily leave you with minimal debt upon grad. Youd be in a formidable position to start a legal career in the southeast.

[Ljgwood]

My two previous scores were 164/165. I was pretty disappointed. Especially in the Feb score, because I felt I had done well. Brutal curve.

[shump92]

I would try to retake for Duke/UVA. 4 points better would put you in a great position and if you were not getting -0 in LG that would be the easiest section to improve with more self study.

I would say you would be fine getting your apps in around normal time this fall and then asking Duke and UVA to hold your app until your score comes back.

[Ljgwood]

LG is my strongest section. What wiped me out on the June test was LR. I thought everything seemed straightforward when I took it, but I definitely screwed up something. My previous post Was actually in reference to June as well.

But that strategy sounds good. Something
I hadn't considered.

Also, is Feb too late to expect much in the way of money? The deadline (at least this year) was about the same time we finally got our scores.

[CanadianWolf]

With a 165/3.85 you should get substantial scholarship offers from Georgia, Wm. & Mary, & Emory.

Consider applying to Alabama.

Where do you want to live & work after law school ? Any specific field of law ?

[Ljgwood]

I'm flexible as to specifics. (Is that naive?) I would feel more comfortable in the SE, just because of proximity of friends and family, and a degree of familiarity. But I'm not totally against going somewhere else as long as the job outlook there isn't terrible. (Job availability and placement numbers are my main concern) To be honest I've lived within a 70 mile radius my entire life, so I'm pretty open to a move. As to type of law, I'd like something in PI. I'm not interested in being rich but miserable. I'd rather make a decent living and do something I find interesting and fulfilling.

Alabama is on my list as well. They do conditional scholarships, so I'm somewhat wary of that. I'm not naive enough to believe that top grades will be as easy to get when everyone you're measured against was a former curve-setter somewhere. I know I sound clueless, but I'll figure it out.

[Nomo]

Honestly, you should do one of the following:
(1) Drop the part time job and study hard so you can take the LSAT in September or December
(2) Take a lighter courseload so you can study harder for the LSAT and just graduate in May with everyone else
(3) Keep the job, graduate early. Prep hard for the February or June LSAT and apply next year.

Number (3) is probably your best option. It gives you the most time to study, and its probably the best financial option. It will also give you more time between undergrad and law school - which is something that nobody ever regrets.

[Ljgwood]

Dropping the job is out of the question. I also can't justify paying for another semester for 3 credit hours. I had been considering taking the Feb to see where I stood.

Would a Dec grad still be K-JD? Just how much are softs considered when your LSAT/GPA are both above median?

[Clemenceau]

Dropping the job is out of the question. I also can't justify paying for another semester for 3 credit hours. I had been considering taking the Feb to see where I stood.

Would a Dec grad still be K-JD? Just how much are softs considered when your LSAT/GPA are both above median?

Still kjd, without a doubt. Not really sure what the second question means.

[rnoodles]

Dropping the job is out of the question. I also can't justify paying for another semester for 3 credit hours. I had been considering taking the Feb to see where I stood.

Would a Dec grad still be K-JD? Just how much are softs considered when your LSAT/GPA are both above median?

Still kjd, without a doubt. Not really sure what the second question means.

If I understand your second question correctly, they would likely matter most when/if it comes down to a "you vs. other applicant" scenario. Otherwise, the numbers are still most important.

[benwyatt]

Post removed.

[Ljgwood]

As to my previous question, which was vague, I just was wondering if, for instance, I was accepted at W&M where my current LSAT and GPA both were above median, would the kJD and average resume matter that much? The answer was kind of what I was expecting. I'm hoping that the LSAT/GPA will be good enough to get a few decent offers without my HS summer jobs and PT job having to be measured against some 30 year old with a couple of years of managing a department at an impressive company under his belt.

[Ljgwood]

I didn't read the rest of this thread, but as far as your Kaplan higher score guarantee goes, it doesn't actually matter that you scored higher if it wasn't your goal score. As long as you went to all the sessions of your class and did all your assigned work, you're still eligible for a free retake, you just have to call 1-800-KAPTEST.

Source: I work for Kaplan.

Is there a time limit on that? Would it apply to a Feb retake?

[shump92]

As to my previous question, which was vague, I just was wondering if, for instance, I was accepted at W&M where my current LSAT and GPA both were above median, would the kJD and average resume matter that much? The answer was kind of what I was expecting. I'm hoping that the LSAT/GPA will be good enough to get a few decent offers without my HS summer jobs and PT job having to be measured against some 30 year old with a couple of years of managing a department at an impressive company under his belt.

Yeah softs are basically helpful for two things. One, what was previously mentioned about the comparison between very similar candidates. And two, helping you "outperform" your numbers (think people who get in with a below the 25th percentile LSAT). If you hit at or above both medians and can write your essays well (maybe even decently), you should be fine.

[benwyatt]

Post removed.

[Ljgwood]

Thanks! I would never have checked that. I just assumed that since the score was higher, I was outta luck.

[Ljgwood]

So, how would everyone rank these factors in order of importance when deciding where to apply?

Location
Tuition cost vs $$ offered (the 2nd part of this comparison is unknown for me at present)
CoL
School rank
Job placement stats
Rate of employment for job type

I've been looking at rates of placement for different fields of PI as a starting point. Is this where I should start or should I make this a down-the-line consideration?

Another question, why is school employment a bad thing? It seems to me like a good way to earn experience while 1) you're getting a paycheck and 2) you look for a "real" job.

[AlwaysLurking]

So, how would everyone rank these factors in order of importance when deciding where to apply?

Location
Tuition cost vs $$ offered (the 2nd part of this comparison is unknown for me at present)
CoL
School rank
Job placement stats
Rate of employment for job type

I've been looking at rates of placement for different fields of PI as a starting point. Is this where I should start or should I make this a down-the-line consideration?

Another question, why is school employment a bad thing? It seems to me like a good way to earn experience while 1) you're getting a paycheck and 2) you look for a "real" job.

To address an earlier question/previous remarks, you will get a good amount of money from w&m with your current stats, but as others said, why not retake to shoot for money from duke or Vandy for cheeep?

To the quoted question, the middle will vary, but I would go: 1. Job placement 2. Bundle CoL, tuition, and merit aid into a total COA number. Since you don't know what you'll get until you apply, you can look at law school numbers. But don't necessarily disqualify a school for having a high COL or high tuition unless you expect to pay sticker or have money on the table elsewhere.
Ranking matters, but only to the extent it reflects job placement and job quality. In other words, t14+ or not.
Location matters more if the school is regional and/or you lack ties to a region. So for your SE goals, emory is probably better than WUSTL at equal cost. You can also consider what kind of city or town you want to spend 3 years in, but not at the expense of the primary factors (cost/jobs).
Rate of employment type is somewhat helpful, but misleading. The textbook example is looking at like Yale vs another top school for big firm placement. I think it would be more meaningful to look at things like LRAP and public interest fellowships or summer programs.

To your final question, It's just the way it is utilized to mask placement shortcomings that is problematic. It sometimes seems like more of a safety net for the schools than their students. In your case though, there could be some decent PI related school funding.

[shump92]

So, how would everyone rank these factors in order of importance when deciding where to apply?

Location
Tuition cost vs $$ offered (the 2nd part of this comparison is unknown for me at present)
CoL
School rank
Job placement stats
Rate of employment for job type

I've been looking at rates of placement for different fields of PI as a starting point. Is this where I should start or should I make this a down-the-line consideration?

Another question, why is school employment a bad thing? It seems to me like a good way to earn experience while 1) you're getting a paycheck and 2) you look for a "real" job.

Depending on your situation I would say:
1a) COA factors
If you are debt averse or not interested in big law this is important More along the lines of don't have 200K debt pre-interest.
1b) Job placement stats and relevant prestige factor on jobs
Your career goals are very important to consider. T14 can have an impact in certain areas. Don't obsess over minor differences in employment outcomes though. Think more along the lines of big market odds or national flexibility here.
2) Location/school environment
You should be somewhere that you will be relatively happy at for 3 years and could see yourself staying around long term. Don't discount this even if you turn down a "higher ranked" school
3) Differences in COA among schools that you like about the same based on those above concerns

I don't think rank itself matters at all. It's more of a difference among these types of groupings: HYS to big market T14s to other T14s to strong T1s to the rest. The relevant differences should be accounted for among the first 3 things.