Howard ($$$) vs. Lower T14 ($) Forum

[breakbot1]

Edit:

Howard COA: Approx $50,000 (mainly cost of living expenses, offset by some savings)
Lower T-14 COA (Think GULC, Cornell, Mich): Approx. 180,000

Financing with loans and a minimal amount of savings. Should add that I am pretty debt averse-- don't want to spend a lifetime paying off loans.

Open to working in any major urban area. Considering big law, but would like the possibility of exploring other (public) interests.

3.3/165 URM

Took the LSAT once. Working full-time and wasn't able to study/sit again for this admissions cycle.

[Traynor Brah]

Need a lot more info. Read the thing at the top of the forum then update your post. If the 180 is for cornell, then I would vote for that, though.

[ManoftheHour]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

[breakbot1]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Based this on current US News ranking.

[celtslaw]

I voted for T14 because you would need at least top ~10% at Howard to be considered for biglaw. I have a friend with a full ride there and he now regrets his decision. He definitely underestimated how hard it was to beat 90% of his class.

[rnoodles]

I'm only a 0L, but lower T14 sounds safest. Like even if you don't place top 10% at Cornell, you'll have a much easier chance getting great biglaw (same, I'd assume, for your other T14 options). Basically, T14 underperformance would be much more forgiving than the same at Howard.

[runinthefront]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

In all objective measures, Michigan is way closer to Cornell than it is to Penn.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

[celtslaw]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

Sure, but we're comparing it to Howard here...

[abl]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

[BigZuck]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

How does expanding it to 4 years of data (what LST has) undermine Mack's point?

Doesn't that help support it?

[runinthefront]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you want it to support.

[abl]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you wants it to support.

So what's it say?

[mt2165]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

In all objective measures, Michigan is way closer to Cornell than it is to Penn.

Let me help you out bro. By all objective measures, Cornell is way closer to Penn than it is to Michigan.

[BigZuck]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you wants it to support.

So what's it say?

What'd it say when you looked it up?

[runinthefront]

Michigan is considered a lower T-14 now? What happened to MVPB?

Michigan has the worst employment statistics outside of GULC

You can't focus too much on one year's worth of data. Look at where Michigan's been over the past three or five years.

Lol.... I'm not sure the data will support what you wants it to support.

So what's it say?

Penn's Biglaw + FC placement averaged over the last three years (over 101+ attorneys): 78.1% (2014) + 69.1% (2013) + 77% = 71.4%

Cornell's Biglaw + FC placement averaged over the last three years (over 101+ attorneys): 74.3% (2014) + 68.4% (2013) + 64.2% (2012) = 69%

Michigan's Biglaw + FC placement averaged over the last three years (101+ attorneys): 53.8% (2014) + 57.1% (2013) + 51.8% (2012) = do I need to calculate this

-

Penn's full-time, long term, bar passed required jobs (minus school funded): 91.4% (2014) + 85.7% (2013) + 91.8% (2012) = fucking awesome

Cornell's full-time, long term, bar passed required jobs (minus school funded): 90. 1% (2014) + 81.3% (2013) + 85.3% (2012) = 85.6%

Michigan's full-time, long term, bar passed required jobs (minus school funded): 81.8% (2014) + 81.2% (2013) + 81.7% (2012) = 81.6%

I'm drunk leaving a firm event so please check my numbers but yeah. Not trying nor willing to derail the thread but I thought this was pretty uncontroversial even with the PI self-selection counterargument

[CanadianWolf]

Have you asked for more scholarship money from each law school ? Negotiated at all ? Just reread the original post & realized that you have only one T-14 offer. Is this correct ? If so, then consider each school's loan forgiveness option for public interest work.

Also, how well does Howard place in public interest organizations ?

[BigZuck]

abl FURIOUSLY BOOMING at the thought of Michigan not wiping the floor with the rest of the mid-T14

[PoopNpants]

In your shoes I would re-take for more $$$. I'm a URM with similar stats, GPA is a little lower but I got a 167 and I'm re-taking in October. If your as debt-adverse as I am you should definitely re-take, especially IF i'm correct in assuming your black

[abl]

abl FURIOUSLY BOOMING at the thought of Michigan not wiping the floor with the rest of the mid-T14

?

I personally don't care--I didn't go to any of these schools and I don't have close friends who went to any of these schools. I'm just surprised and skeptical. I've been pretty involved in enough hiring at enough different types of places to see that Michigan = Penn etc (and > Cornell) for hiring purposes. If Michigan's doing worse than Cornell (which I still doubt), it's not because employers are choosing Cornell grads over Michigan grads all else being equal.

[BigZuck]

abl FURIOUSLY BOOMING at the thought of Michigan not wiping the floor with the rest of the mid-T14

?

I personally don't really care--I didn't go to any of these schools. I'm just surprised and skeptical. I've been pretty involved in enough hiring at enough different types of places to see that Michigan = Penn etc (and > Cornell) for hiring purposes. If Michigan's doing worse than Cornell (which I still doubt), it's not because employers are choosing Cornell grads over Michigan grads all else being equal.

What did the data say when you looked it up?

[abl]

abl FURIOUSLY BOOMING at the thought of Michigan not wiping the floor with the rest of the mid-T14

?

I personally don't really care--I didn't go to any of these schools. I'm just surprised and skeptical. I've been pretty involved in enough hiring at enough different types of places to see that Michigan = Penn etc (and > Cornell) for hiring purposes. If Michigan's doing worse than Cornell (which I still doubt), it's not because employers are choosing Cornell grads over Michigan grads all else being equal.

What did the data say when you looked it up?

I didn't look the data up, but according to one of the earlier posters on this thread, it appears that Michigan's been doing worse in recent years than Cornell and Penn at biglaw + clerk placement. I seriously doubt it's because employers prefer Cornell and Penn grads, and suspect that there's a better explanation for those numbers. I also suspect that the numbers for Michigan and Penn would look far more similar if we had a better metric of post-law school success than biglaw+clerkships.

[BigZuck]

abl FURIOUSLY BOOMING at the thought of Michigan not wiping the floor with the rest of the mid-T14

?

I personally don't really care--I didn't go to any of these schools. I'm just surprised and skeptical. I've been pretty involved in enough hiring at enough different types of places to see that Michigan = Penn etc (and > Cornell) for hiring purposes. If Michigan's doing worse than Cornell (which I still doubt), it's not because employers are choosing Cornell grads over Michigan grads all else being equal.

What did the data say when you looked it up?

I didn't look the data up, but according to one of the earlier posters on this thread, it appears that Michigan's been doing worse in recent years than Cornell and Penn at biglaw + clerk placement. I seriously doubt it's because employers prefer Cornell and Penn grads, and suspect that there's a better explanation for those numbers. I also suspect that the numbers for Michigan and Penn would look far more similar if we had a better metric of post-law school success than biglaw+clerkships.

Dude don't tell someone else to look up the data for you and then when the data doesn't support your argument and actually says the opposite say "Oh yeah, I didn't look at the the data and who cares about it anyway." You brought it up dude.

I full acknowledge boomers gonna boom but this is a new low, even for you.

[abl]

abl FURIOUSLY BOOMING at the thought of Michigan not wiping the floor with the rest of the mid-T14

?

I personally don't really care--I didn't go to any of these schools. I'm just surprised and skeptical. I've been pretty involved in enough hiring at enough different types of places to see that Michigan = Penn etc (and > Cornell) for hiring purposes. If Michigan's doing worse than Cornell (which I still doubt), it's not because employers are choosing Cornell grads over Michigan grads all else being equal.

What did the data say when you looked it up?

I didn't look the data up, but according to one of the earlier posters on this thread, it appears that Michigan's been doing worse in recent years than Cornell and Penn at biglaw + clerk placement. I seriously doubt it's because employers prefer Cornell and Penn grads, and suspect that there's a better explanation for those numbers. I also suspect that the numbers for Michigan and Penn would look far more similar if we had a better metric of post-law school success than biglaw+clerkships.

Dude don't tell someone else to look up the data for you and then when the data doesn't support your argument and actually says the opposite say "Oh yeah, I didn't look at the the data and who cares about it anyway." You brought it up dude.

I full acknowledge boomers gonna boom but this is a new low, even for you.

I obviously looked at the data posted in the thread, and said as much. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were only asking to be a dick, right? If my most recent post came across as awkward or disingenuous in any way, it was only because I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I admit that I'm wrong about what the data says, and I'm sorry if that wasn't more evident from my previous post. The data seems pretty clear that there seems to be *some* difference between MIchigan and Penn. But I stand by my bigger point, which is that I don't think there's any real difference between where the Michigan name will get you and where the Penn name will get you. Whatever's influencing the Michigan and Penn numbers, I don't think it's employers choosing Penn students over Michigan students (and I definitely don't think it's employers choosing Cornell students over Michigan students).

Also, not that it matters at all, but I'm not a boomer.

[Lacepiece23]

I'd take howard. Unless you really, really want biglaw for some insane reason. Go to Howard, come out with little debt, work your way up through your career and skip biglaw all together. You will be much happier in the end.

And you could actually go and be a DA or PD for a few years, gain trial experience, actually love your job, and then move into private practice and make close to what the biglaw burnouts make anyway. Or you could become a lifer there. Idk, I'm just really against anyone taking out that much debt to go to law school for a shot at working in biglaw.