Chicago ($$) v. Duke ($$$) Forum

[terrier27]

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Thank you for your help everyone!

[Ron Howard]

You're from Virginia. Why no UVA?

[terrier27]

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[Ron Howard]

There we go, a Techy. Anyway, as your offers stand, I would go with Michigan.

[secadc11]

Are you a URM and/or have ridiculous softs? These are very high scholly amounts for your stats.

That said, probably Michigan here unless you have a major preference for Durham.

[terrier27]

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[Serett]

Are you a URM and/or have ridiculous softs? These are very high scholly amounts for your stats.

That said, probably Michigan here unless you have a major preference for Durham.

Seriously, those are some great schollies. Actually, the numbers ITT look wonky all-around. A $15k total scholarship difference between Duke and Michigan shouldn't translate into a $40k CoA difference.

I guess Michigan, but I'm not sure how much I trust whatever's happening with the numbers here.

[terrier27]

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[terrier27]

Bump for recalculated COAs

[CanadianWolf]

Chicago, but any of your options is easily justifiable, in my opinion.

[gnomgnomuch]

Schools you are considering:
Chicago with COA $184k ($90k scholly)
Duke with COA $111k ($135k scholly)
Michigan with COA $92k ($150k scholly) --> I have pretty much eliminated Michigan

COA will be financed by loans.

I am from Virginia but family is still in NY. No ties anywhere else.

I ultimately want to work as a prosecutor in NY, with the possible opportunity to clerk for a year or two.

Stats: 3.41/170. Took LSAT twice.

Also, do you think I could negotiate Chicago up a little with Duke's offer? I only knew of Michigan offer at time of feeler call.


Edit: Numbers Recalculated to exclude medical insurance, computer allowance, and transportation (parental contributions). Michigan stayed unchanged b/c did not include those separately in its calculation.

Edited to be choice between Chicago and Duke

Depends on how debt averse you are, and how much you value good weather vs Chicago winter. Either is justifiable, though I'd say an extra 75k for Chicago isn't really worth it over Duke. Your goals are a bit different than standard big-law, so look at the schools LRAP. Have you tried negotiating with Chicago, they might be willing to give you some extra money? And, maybe leverage that into more money at Duke/Mich (if it's still an option for you.)

[terrier27]

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[gnomgnomuch]

Depends on how debt averse you are, and how much you value good weather vs Chicago winter. Either is justifiable, though I'd say an extra 75k for Chicago isn't really worth it over Duke. Your goals are a bit different than standard big-law, so look at the schools LRAP. Have you tried negotiating with Chicago, they might be willing to give you some extra money? And, maybe leverage that into more money at Duke/Mich (if it's still an option for you.)

I am trying to limit debt, but Chicago's LRAP is better than Duke's with a higher salary cap and inclusion of judicial clerkships.

I wanted to negotiate with Chicago, but they only gave me until the 15th, so I'm not sure if I can ask for an extension in addition to an increased scholarship offer. I felt like I kind of already lucked out in the amount of aid I did receive when looking at other aid offers on LSN. But I guess it doesn't hurt to ask.

It's not a very easy choice, I'd e-mail them and ask before making a decision... the worst they can do is say no. How MUCH better is the LRAP?

[CanadianWolf]

OP: Although prosecutorial positions are readily available to graduates of all three law schools, clerkship opportunities are best, I believe, at Chicago. (LST --law school transparency--should have the most recent numbers, however.)

[terrier27]

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[landshoes]

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[WheninLaw]

As a UoC grad...I'd choose Duke, but it's close. 75K is a lot.

[landshoes]

Also, I made a very similar decision, and it came down to what I could forsee my loan payments being in different scenarios.

Making 40k at some kind of non-LRAP eligible job/soloing: PAYE makes the payments indistinguishable. Also fuck my life if this happens. I think Chicago makes this slightly less likely, but who knows.

Making 40-60k at an LRAP eligible job: Chicago guarantees support AFAIK in this case, and Duke you can apply for it (and it seems very likely that you will get it). Chicago also supports summer PI without having to apply or compete for it, which makes doing summer PI much lower stress, but that's a small factor since you'll just do it with loans if you really want to. No loan payments in this scenario for either school, but that seems more guaranteed at Chicago. Slightly more likely to get these jobs from Chicago if the PI hiring is into prestige, and a lot of them are.

Making 70kish- at an LRAP eligible job:
a very likely scenario in fedgov jobs, and the advantage is clearly Chicago because they're still paying your loan payments and you really need that money for rent, childcare, and quality of life. At 70k a few hundred dollars a month makes a huge difference in the overall financial picture.

Clerkships in preparation for biglaw:
Chicago pays LRAP for these, and over a 2 year clerkship that likely amounts to more than 10k, and similar to the above scenario, having that money immediately available during your clerkship might mean a much higher QOL (a few hundred dollars a month makes a huge difference in your living standard at $50k/year annual salary)

Making $160k+ in big law lockstep, or just generally more than 80k: This is the scenario in which Duke wins. The payments for a 20 year repayment schedule are hundreds of dollars lower for Duke, and obviously there is less to pay in total for Duke. Hundreds of dollars a month isn't nothing, especially over the course of the loan, but it's not going to have nearly as much of an impact on your quality of life at $160k+ as it will at $70k.

You seem smart and with-it enough to have thought all of this through for yourself already, but in case you wanted insight into my decision making process, there it is.

[terrier27]

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[terrier27]

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[WheninLaw]

As a UoC grad...I'd choose Duke, but it's close. 75K is a lot.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of jobs were you aiming for? Also, did you not feel like Chicago gave you a greater opportunity in those jobs in relation to debt amount at repayment (assuming you had debt at all)?

I wanted to Clerk and work in CA, both of which I'm doing. And I definitely feel like Chicago gave me a better opportunity over other places. But everything should be quantified - you need to figure out how much the x% greater chance at y is worth to you. Given your goals, I'm not sure 75K is worth it, though it's obviously a personal decision.

[terrier27]

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[landshoes]

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[gnomgnomuch]

It's not a very easy choice, I'd e-mail them and ask before making a decision... the worst they can do is say no. How MUCH better is the LRAP?

Chicago has a salary cap of $80,000 and includes judicial clerkships. Duke has a salary cap (full) at $60,000 with partial repayments at $75,000 and doesn't include judicial clerkships, so I think quite a bit better.

OP: Although prosecutorial positions are readily available to graduates of all three law schools, clerkship opportunities are best, I believe, at Chicago. (LST --law school transparency--should have the most recent numbers, however.)

Yeah the clerkship placement is what stands out for Chicago, but clerking in the first place is so hit or miss, I'm not sure how much of my decision I should base on it. Also, Chicago's grading system kind of scares me, but more because I don't really understand it at all...

For your situation, I'd lean Chicago. The LRAP seems much more solid, and provides you with an opportunity for clerking - you never know if you might want it. Also, Chicago is more of a lock for big-law than Duke, so if you don't give PD work, than you can go big-law as a last resort. Again, neither choice is wrong here, but for the jobs that aren't solely big-law, it would seem that Chicago> Duke (and ofc Chicago> Duke for big-law anyway.)

[Winston1984]

Why have you eliminated Mich?