Stanford ($) v. Cornell ($$) v. UCLA ($$$) v. Others Forum

[avd12]

-The schools you are considering
Stanford. Cornell. UCLA.

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
Stanford: 245,000-300,000 after scholarships (my financial aid award only listed the 1st year and didn't say if it renewed. I'm waiting on a response).
Cornell: 116,000 after scholarships
UCLA: 75,000 after scholarships

I assumed any need any wouldn't continue after the 1st year - better to plan I don't get it then count on it.

Other T-14s admitted to: Berkeley (5k need a year, no merit). Chicago (10k aid a year). Gtown (10k a year), NU (35k a year).
Waitlisted at: Harvard, Penn, UVA, Michigan, Duke.
Waiting on: Columbia, NYU
Rejected: Yale

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Loans + some savings. Mostly loans though.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
I'm from SoCal and I want to live in SoCal. Preferably LA county or the OC.

-Your general career goals
I don't want big law. I'm not firmly against it and wouldn't mind working in big law for a few years if that was my best offer. However, I'd prefer to work for a smaller firm (50-100 attys) in a slightly smaller market (such as the OC). I don't mind making less if it means I can work 60hours instead of 80.
As far as what type of law interests me, there's quite a bit. I plan on focusing on soft IP and tax law, though I may whittle that down to one.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
166, 3.85 (ma-urm)

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
twice.

I'm leaning towards UCLA. I really liked it and I want to be in SoCal.
Cornell's great, but I dont want NYC biglaw so I figure UCLA would be better, if more limiting. Is that wrong?
What I keep coming back to is Stanford. I'm fairly debt-averse so the 170-225K extra is scary. And I'm not incredibly interested in a golden collar. But it's Stanford.
Is UCLA the right choice?

[hairbear7]

Based off of your career goals I think UCLA at that price is a solid option

[Jchance]

I agree with the above poster but giving up Stanford is a tough call. Plus, if you want soft IP (pretty unicorn-y), Stanford might get you get, but probably not worth the money though.

[CanadianWolf]

This is a bit more difficult than other threads involving Yale versus generous fellowships at Chicago & Michigan because UCLA's placement numbers are not as good as are those within the T-14 law schools.

My opinion is that UCLA is your best option because Stanford would leave you with massive student loan debt--although you would be much more likely to be employed upon graduation than you would from UCLA. Since your career goals are to work reasonable hours & for a small law firm in SoCal, you should try to make employment connections as soon as you finish your first semester.

Since you are interested in tax law, familiarize yourself with the tax law & accounting firms in SoCal that are of interest to you. Try to determine if they prefer accounting, IRS or even LLM backgrounds. An LLM in tax law from NYU & Georgetown can be valuable when seeking a tax law position but may be totally unnecessary for your targeted firms.

[transferror]

Modest goals + SoCal preference = UCLA at full ride

This is especially true b/c modest-sized firms in smaller CA markets will recruit at UCLA but not [insert random T14], and nothing about your goals or financial situation justifies Stanford.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Make a poll

Based on what you've said about your goals I would choose UCLA

[avd12]

now with a poll.

[avd12]

This is a bit more difficult than other threads involving Yale versus generous fellowships at Chicago & Michigan because UCLA's placement numbers are not as good as are those within the T-14 law schools.

My opinion is that UCLA is your best option because Stanford would leave you with massive student loan debt--although you would be much more likely to be employed upon graduation than you would from UCLA. Since your career goals are to work reasonable hours & for a small law firm in SoCal, you should try to make employment connections as soon as you finish your first semester.

Since you are interested in tax law, familiarize yourself with the tax law & accounting firms in SoCal that are of interest to you. Try to determine if they prefer accounting, IRS or even LLM backgrounds. An LLM in tax law from NYU & Georgetown can be valuable when seeking a tax law position but may be totally unnecessary for your targeted firms.

Yeah, UCLA's employment numbers make it a little harder to commit. I know I'll have to grind a lot more to get a job, but I mostly find that more appealing than 2-3k a month in loan payments.

[hairbear7]

Lol @ the 3 people who have already voted Stanford

[Mack.Hambleton]

UCLA

[Apsara]

200k+ debt is no joke and will require BL to pay it off. This translates to working in BL for at least 5 or more years.

Given your goals and the debt, UCLA wins this race.

Sidenote: You should strongly consider NU as well. 35k/yr ain't so bad and they place very well in CA.

[Sls17]

How could Stanford possibly cost you $300k in loans, scholarship or no scholarship?

[leslieknope]

How could Stanford possibly cost you $300k in loans, scholarship or no scholarship?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... osts/2013/

That said, I found my personal COA for a lot of schools was under the LST estimate, even when factoring in COL, loan fees, and interest accruing while in school. Try using lawschool22's spreadsheet to get a better idea of debt at repayment, OP. You can find it here.

Also, I would definitely consider NU's offer more seriously here. I personally know quite a few NU alums working in LA, some of whom had no ties or particularly stellar grades. CA's their third biggest market and self-selection probably plays a lot into it.

[Mack.Hambleton]

How could Stanford possibly cost you $300k in loans, scholarship or no scholarship?

R u jokin

COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest

[Mack.Hambleton]

On stanfords own site they list COA at over 80k

Now add tuition increases (around 4% per year) and then multiply by three

And then add accumulated interest

[avd12]

How could Stanford possibly cost you $300k in loans, scholarship or no scholarship?

According to the financial aid award letter from stanford, they estimate total cost will be 88,290 for 15-16 and rise the next year. Assuming a 4% per year increase and my aid only being for the first year that comes out to 298k in debt. So I rounded a little.

[Traynor Brah]

Why is Northwestern not being considered here? Wouldn't the COA be like 120K based on that scholarship? That's a better option than Cornell here, at any rate.

[PeanutsNJam]

What's with all these S vs UCLA/USC threads for cali lovers. Boalt closing shop? Did you try to negotiate for money?

You're a high GPA urm, you push all of Boalt's buttons.

Send them an email, list out all your acceptances/scholarships right now. Say you really want Cali, and S is too expensive, and UCLA's employment numbers are below what's comfortable for you. Ask them for $$$. I don't see why they wouldn't throw you anywhere between 70-100k, which would make B the easy choice.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

UCLA...but also...

What's with all these S vs UCLA/USC threads for cali lovers. Boalt closing shop? Did you try to negotiate for money?

You're a high GPA urm, you push all of Boalt's buttons.

Send them an email, list out all your acceptances/scholarships right now. Say you really want Cali, and S is too expensive, and UCLA's employment numbers are below what's comfortable for you. Ask them for $$$. I don't see why they wouldn't throw you anywhere between 70-100k, which would make B the easy choice.

[avd12]

What's with all these S vs UCLA/USC threads for cali lovers. Boalt closing shop? Did you try to negotiate for money?

You're a high GPA urm, you push all of Boalt's buttons.

Send them an email, list out all your acceptances/scholarships right now. Say you really want Cali, and S is too expensive, and UCLA's employment numbers are below what's comfortable for you. Ask them for $$$. I don't see why they wouldn't throw you anywhere between 70-100k, which would make B the easy choice.

they rejected my matching app, but I sent them another letter and am awaiting a response.

[cron1834]

Lol @ the 3 people who have already voted Stanford

Yeah, wtf? Close to sticker for someone who doesn't want big law? How does that work, exactly?

[abl]

What's your Stanford COA assuming your aid is renewed every year? I'd also knock at least 5k if not 10k off of the estimated COA each year (so $15k-30k total), as SLS's COA is famously overstated: it assumes that you're living in Munger (which is not even the cheapest on-campus grad option, let alone the cheapest option within a quick bike ride of campus) while doing a fair bit of eating out. At least, knock that money off if you're ok not living in the "law dorm" for all three years.

[Julius]

The issue with Stanford here is that S's LRAP doesn't cover firm work unless it is at a public interest firm. The cost would probably require LA biglaw for a couple years and then lateraling into a smaller firm. The issue with UCLA is you stand a decent chance of graduating unemployed. There are quite a few bad outcomes on this list:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/jobs/2013/

S's need aid is renewed but it is also revised based on changes in on your financial situation. So if you make decent money 1L or 2L summer you'll have a reduction in your aid package. It sounds like you are over estimating the cost.

What is your first year aid offer?

[avd12]

What's your Stanford COA assuming your aid is renewed every year? I'd also knock at least 5k if not 10k off of the estimated COA each year (so $15k-30k total), as SLS's COA is famously overstated: it assumes that you're living in Munger (which is not even the cheapest on-campus grad option, let alone the cheapest option within a quick bike ride of campus) while doing a fair bit of eating out. At least, knock that money off if you're ok not living in the "law dorm" for all three years.

Assuming it's renewed and using the same COA as previously, its 245k if the aid renews. If I knock off 5k a year, its 226.

[PeanutsNJam]

What's with all these S vs UCLA/USC threads for cali lovers. Boalt closing shop? Did you try to negotiate for money?

You're a high GPA urm, you push all of Boalt's buttons.

Send them an email, list out all your acceptances/scholarships right now. Say you really want Cali, and S is too expensive, and UCLA's employment numbers are below what's comfortable for you. Ask them for $$$. I don't see why they wouldn't throw you anywhere between 70-100k, which would make B the easy choice.

they rejected my matching app, but I sent them another letter and am awaiting a response.

Just let Boalt know they have a good chance of stealing you away from S/UCLA if they offer money.

Also, rest of you posters should know lots of S grads self-select out of biglaw. Wanting biglaw isn't a prereq for choosing S.

Doing paid summers 1L and 2L can also remove a significant portion of your debt.