164 3.7 URM Forum

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:38 pm

Hi! So my cycle has been stressful to say the least. As a URM splitter, it's hard to find much data for my #s. I have one more retake left, but I am debating against it because I spent so much $$ this cycle trying to apply. It would be difficult to save up another few hundred for apps, prep, and the test.. especially once my loans from UG kick in. I was PTing around mid 160's, however about a week before the test in I was around 167-168, and did hit 170 once. I feel like I could potentially score higher, but could be a gambling disaster.

The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each school: (just did #s based on tuition & fees)

UT- big fat zero for scholarships. Havent sent in matching scholarship request bc lacking leverage
Debt: 147k (although they do reconsider every year based on grades but that's a scary position to be in)

Fordham- 20k a year
Debt: 93k (haven't negotiated yet)

UCI- 27,500 a year
Debt: 79,500

Cardozo- full tuition (not really considering, safety)

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

Loans. Depending on where I go, COL could be covered by my family.

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties
From california, and I have strong ties (potential employer ties) to southern california and NYC. UT is on the table because I am open to being in Texas after graduation, and I really enjoyed it when I visited. I would ultimately like to end up in LA (could take a few years, that's fine), but I am open to the west coast, the south, and NYC.

Your general career goals
I'm not interested in PI. I would really like Big Law. Interested in Labor Law and soft IP. Although, I'm sure my interests will change when I am actually in LS.

Your LSAT/GPA numbers

164, 3.7

How many times you have taken the LSAT

Twice

Pending Apps:
USC
NYU
Columbia
Stanford (got a need based fee wavier, figured why not for shits and giggles)
Duke
Vanderbilt
UCLA (WL)

Looking for any advice as to next steps I should take, thanks!

071816 · Post by **071816** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:43 pm

what is your specific ethnic background?

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:53 pm

chimp wrote:what is your specific ethnic background?

MA

DaRascal · Post by **DaRascal** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:41 pm

I think I really do have an explanation for all this. It seems that with MA/PR URM's it all comes down to softs when you're talking numbers like that. All we have are LSN/TLS anecdotes, but look at the ones who have gotten in with similar #'s from TLS and LSN in the past 5 or so years. There was the Alex guy from Stony Brook who had a 3.5/164 and got into NYU ED. There was "PREsquire" I think her name was and she got into NYU with a 3.5/164 as well. And then there were guys like elptx (3.5/160) and Tr3 (3.5/164) with incredible softs and/or Ivy undergrads. So I think when it comes down to average GPA's and low to mid 160 LSAT scores and trying to get into a T14 not named Cornell or Michigan at sticker price, I think the softs and UG rigor undoubtedly make the difference between who gets in and who gets waitlisted or flatout rejected because you're on the fence at that point being below the medians even though your GPA puts you in a better spot.

I think you'll definitely have to reapply regardless, but you should be aiming for a full ride in CA, most likely from USC. I'm surprised you didn't apply to Berkeley, but I think it'll be at sticker price too from what I've seen, so I think if you can't improve your LSAT, you should reapply on Day 1 and craft a flawless app for USC while also applying to select T14 schools such as Chicago and Cornell.

I was in an identical spot two years ago with the undergrad loans looming, middling law school options, and a score that was few points lower and a GPA that had dipped so much so that I needed to score a few points over my PT average on the LSAT in order to make up for it and I never really came close, so I'm not really a success story, but I have an ok idea of what's in store for you and I implore you not to fall into the trap of lower T14 at sticker if one needs your 3.7/164; USC with a full ride is the key, bro. I spent a lot of time wondering why I couldn't cop a lucky acceptance to the lower T14 when my numbers were at their peak and that's almost definitely the explanation. These top schools invariably take the applicant without the downward grade trends, and with superior softs/better recs/better personal statements if the numbers are in the same ballpark. #Tiebreakers

CanadianWolf · Post by **CanadianWolf** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:51 pm

How does one "craft a flawless app" ?

Doesn't it really come down to the pool of URM applicants at a particular law school ?

sesto elemento · Post by **sesto elemento** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:58 pm

When did you apply OP?

ReasonableNprudent · Post by **ReasonableNprudent** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:09 pm

164/3.7 is a splitter? Seems like those numbers are pretty scaled.

DaRascal · Post by **DaRascal** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:19 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:How does one "craft a flawless app" ?

Doesn't it really come down to the pool of URM applicants at a particular law school ?

I mean that if his apps weren't submitted early or meticulously completed this cycle, then he should write the most effective personal statement and diversity statement he's capable of writing, get the strongest letters of rec possible, and absolutely make sure there isn't one single grammar or punctuation error in the written portions of the application as that could make all the difference, and now he has to find something very interesting to do if he is forced to reapply such as working for a nonprofit.

It seems like the pool is always going to be roughly the same from year to year, perhaps getting gradually weaker with the falling applications.

CanadianWolf · Post by **CanadianWolf** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:24 pm

Agree, but perception by individual readers is still a very subjective process; what one reader evaluates as a 9 out of 10, another may value the same essay as a 6. It's a subjective process. In my opinion, it's best to be careful & honest rather than trying to "tell 'em what they want to hear".

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:49 pm

Applied in January due to taking the December test.

I thought I wasn't that much of a splitter at first but I've had numerous people (including a dean) say that I was so just going off of those responses.

Thank you for the replies! I would take a full at USC and run as fast as I could haha UCLA/USC were my top choices before I began the process. I definitely agree with the softs observation. My softs aren't terrible, but I would say at least average, if not slightly above because I do have interesting work experience. Just not a lot of it.

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:01 pm

Oh and I forgot to mention I did apply at Berkeley, but i think I was doomed from the start with my GPA. Rejected at Michigan and GULC as well.

071816 · Post by **071816** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:02 pm

Itstatertot wrote:Oh and I forgot to mention I did apply at Berkeley, but i think I was doomed from the start with my GPA. Rejected at Michigan and GULC as well.

I'm really surprised you didn't get into Michigan. You should probably end up with some good money at USC/UCLA.

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:22 pm

chimp wrote:
Itstatertot wrote:Oh and I forgot to mention I did apply at Berkeley, but i think I was doomed from the start with my GPA. Rejected at Michigan and GULC as well.
I'm really surprised you didn't get into Michigan. You should probably end up with some good money at USC/UCLA.

Still heartbroken over it. I thought I killed the extra essay too, oh well

but thanks, you're giving me hope! Do you think it's worth it to deposit at UT and wait out for USC/UCLA before giving up on this cycle? I'm not sure how slim my chances are getting a decent offer from either and to potentially use it for negotiation

sesto elemento · Post by **sesto elemento** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:01 am

OP I think you applied too late this cycle.
PM me.

OneLisfun · Post by **OneLisfun** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:17 am

I don't think it was smart that you did not literally blanket the T14. Send out an application to every single T14 school. I would be shocked if you didn't get acceptances plus aid at two or more.

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:23 am

OneLisfun wrote:I don't think it was smart that you did not literally blanket the T14. Send out an application to every single T14 school. I would be shocked if you didn't get acceptances plus aid at two or more.

Are there any schools in particular that you're thinking of? Wish I did more than half of the T-14 now

OneLisfun · Post by **OneLisfun** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:17 am

Itstatertot wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:I don't think it was smart that you did not literally blanket the T14. Send out an application to every single T14 school. I would be shocked if you didn't get acceptances plus aid at two or more.

Are there any schools in particular that you're thinking of? Wish I did more than half of the T-14 now

Well, for one thing, the T-14s you applied to are all T-6, aside from Duke. Unless you wrote a horrible application, I'd say you're a lock for Cornell and Georgetown (at least, you definitely are if you apply at the appropriate time next year.) So if you're going to send out anymore applications, I'd go with those two. However, I think you have a decent shot at all the T14s that aren't T6 or 7 (again though, you are very late in the cycle, and may be better off just doing all of this next cycle, as you've placed yourself at a severe disadvantage by applying this late.)

runinthefront · Post by **runinthefront** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:50 am

Itstatertot wrote:Applied in January due to taking the December test.

I thought I wasn't that much of a splitter at first but I've had numerous people (including a dean) say that I was so just going off of those responses.

Thank you for the replies! I would take a full at USC and run as fast as I could haha UCLA/USC were my top choices before I began the process. I definitely agree with the softs observation. My softs aren't terrible, but I would say at least average, if not slightly above because I do have interesting work experience. Just not a lot of it.

Sit out, retake June and re-apply. Even if you don't end up retaking, your cycle will go much better if you just reapply in September.

By the way, you'll need a new personal statement, but everything else on your app can remain the same.

Itstatertot · Post by **Itstatertot** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:36 am

Thanks for everyone's feedback!! Good to know that there's options.

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