UW ($$$$) or Duke ($$) for Seattle Law? Forum

[pbajsandwich]

I applied to law schools with a 169/3.61 and the intention of working in Seattle post graduation. I am a University of Washington alum who has been living and working in Seattle for 4 years after graduation. My twin sister lives in Seattle and I love the area so much that I can see myself living here for many years to come.

My goal is to practice non-big law in the Pacific Northwest (specifically Seattle) and I've now whittled my choice down to two schools: UW and Duke. Both offered me great scholarships which makes the decision even harder. In addition, my father has generously offered to pay the remainder of my costs, so debt isn't a huge factor, though I don't want him to pay more than necessary. I'm at a crossroads, so any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

UW:
Tuition: 32k
Total Cost of Attendance (tuition + living expenses): ~89k

Duke:
Tuition: 73k
Total Cost of Attendance: ~143k

[Winston1984]

UW. Duke would only make sense for biglaw, and I don't know how well they do in Seattle either.

[Jay2716]

Yeah, even if you're graduating with the same debt either way I think you have to go with UW for small firm/gov work in Seattle.

[ncc1701]

If you have ties in Seattle, and you're pretty sure you want to work there or anywhere in the Pacific Northwest, then take UDub. Congrats!

[blackacre10]

...

[BigZuck]

I'm surprised it's leaning so heavily in favor of UW. You went to UW for undergrad. Seattle may be a tie-sensitive market, but I think going there for college is sufficient. At my T-14 (B/S), people who went to college in Washington (or didn't but were raised in WA) were able to find jobs back in Seattle relatively easily. (Granted, we had PNW firms come for OCI.) Same for Portland, a much more tie-sensitive market. I think the boost from Duke may make you more competitive for Seattle. And, if it doesn't pan out from Duke, you don't have an insane debt-load (notwithstanding parental support) and you'll be competitive for other markets. It's not the same for UW.

You know more than me and I believe you but this honestly flies in the face of everything I have read on here and heard anecdotally. My general impression is that the OP will be dead in the water if they go to Duke. When the hiring partner looks at the OP's resume and sees that his/her only ties are going to college there, having a sibling there, and having a burning desire to live in Seattle, he's going to laugh that resume right into the trashcan. He can easily find a person with stronger ties, better grades, and at a better school for the 1-2 spots at his firm.

I don't know, maybe you're right. But the fact that the OP has modest career goals makes this even more of a no brainer in UW's favor, IMO.

[reasonable person]

UW, no question.

[Power_of_Facing]

I'm surprised it's leaning so heavily in favor of UW. You went to UW for undergrad. Seattle may be a tie-sensitive market, but I think going there for college is sufficient. At my T-14 (B/S), people who went to college in Washington (or didn't but were raised in WA) were able to find jobs back in Seattle relatively easily. (Granted, we had PNW firms come for OCI.) Same for Portland, a much more tie-sensitive market. I think the boost from Duke may make you more competitive for Seattle. And, if it doesn't pan out from Duke, you don't have an insane debt-load (notwithstanding parental support) and you'll be competitive for other markets. It's not the same for UW.

You know more than me and I believe you but this honestly flies in the face of everything I have read on here and heard anecdotally. My general impression is that the OP will be dead in the water if they go to Duke. When the hiring partner looks at the OP's resume and sees that his/her only ties are going to college there, having a sibling there, and having a burning desire to live in Seattle, he's going to laugh that resume right into the trashcan. He can easily find a person with stronger ties, better grades, and at a better school for the 1-2 spots at his firm.

I don't know, maybe you're right. But the fact that the OP has modest career goals makes this even more of a no brainer in UW's favor, IMO.

This is dead wrong. UW may well be the more sensible choice given cost and goals, but there is no way a t14 degree will hurt the OP as they compete for jobs against UW grads. UW undergrad and immediate family in the city are definitely enough of a tie.

Duke would increase flexibility.

[rpupkin]

UW. Duke would only make sense for biglaw, and I don't know how well they do in Seattle either.

No out-of-state law school generally does well in Seattle. If a T14 law student wants to work in Seattle, that student better have strong ties. Which, of course, the OP has.

OP: I think UW would be fine, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Duke in your circumstances. Based on what I little I know about the Seattle market, T14 students with ties who come back do pretty well.

Overall, though, this isn't a great question for TLS. Seattle is a very insular market, and people without direct experience in that market aren't really in a position to be giving you advice. Take everyone's advice here (including mine!) with a grain of salt. Hopefully, someone with direct experience with legal hiring in Seattle will weigh in.

ETA: Oh, and for the reasons I just stated, you definitely should ignore your own poll. There's just too much collective ignorance here about the Seattle market to make your poll worthwhile.

[BigZuck]

This is dead wrong. UW may well be the more sensible choice given cost and goals, but there is no way a t14 degree will hurt the OP as they compete for jobs against UW grads. UW undergrad and immediate family in the city are definitely enough of a tie.

Duke would increase flexibility.

Prizhaps. I have no reason to not believe the anons in this and other threads though: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=187755

I don't think there is any question that Duke would "increase flexibility" and I don't believe anyone said to the contrary. But how is that responsive to the OP's situation?

[Jay2716]

I think Duke would be defensible for Seattle biglaw with OPs ties, but I don't think the added preftige of a T14 is ever enough to compensate for the networking disadvantages that come with living 3000 miles away when OP wants small law/gov work. I do know a little about the PNW, and I really don't think local small firms are going to be so impressed with Duke that it will give him any boost over UW kids meeting them for lunches and coffees during the year.

[BigZuck]

that student better have strong ties. Which, of course, the OP has.

Seattle has always struck me as a "So, where did you go to high school?" kind of place, at least as it has been portrayed on here. Shit, I got that question in markets which are supposedly way less tie-sensitive. I was sometimes asked where my SO went to high school. Then they talked to me about high school.

Lawyers.

In interviews.

Talking about high school.

[Jay2716]

I'm surprised it's leaning so heavily in favor of UW. You went to UW for undergrad. Seattle may be a tie-sensitive market, but I think going there for college is sufficient. At my T-14 (B/S), people who went to college in Washington (or didn't but were raised in WA) were able to find jobs back in Seattle relatively easily. (Granted, we had PNW firms come for OCI.) Same for Portland, a much more tie-sensitive market. I think the boost from Duke may make you more competitive for Seattle. And, if it doesn't pan out from Duke, you don't have an insane debt-load (notwithstanding parental support) and you'll be competitive for other markets. It's not the same for UW.

How many of those firms were not biglaw or the PNW equivalent or biglaw?

[CanadianWolf]

Based on your original post in this thread, it seems as though you have already made your decision.

[Ex Cearulo]

Lawyers.

In interviews.

Talking about high school.

Holy shit, seriously? And I bet if the interviewer played against your high school in football or something you were black balled. Good grief.

[Power_of_Facing]

This is dead wrong. UW may well be the more sensible choice given cost and goals, but there is no way a t14 degree will hurt the OP as they compete for jobs against UW grads. UW undergrad and immediate family in the city are definitely enough of a tie.

Duke would increase flexibility.

Prizhaps. I have no reason to not believe the anons in this and other threads though: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=187755

I don't think there is any question that Duke would "increase flexibility" and I don't believe anyone said to the contrary. But how is that responsive to the OP's situation?

One of the posters above you said that going to Duke would find the OP "dead in the water" for Seattle jobs and result in his resume being "laughed into the trashcan." I think this other poster was making this point with respect to Seattle "biglaw" but also trying to say that Duke added no flexibility for smaller firms/government/PI.

Assuming the OP ends up median at either school, I think a Duke degree would still increase the viability for small firm/gov/PI work. This has been my experience getting work in Seattle coming from an east coast T14 with ties. During my 1L summer search, no Seattle employer even asked to look at my grades, and the fact that I'm so far away has counterintuitively made it easier for me to network: The career services office has helped me make Seattle connections, and they've all been very supportive of my job search and eager to meet me when I've been in town. If OP is dead-set on working in Seattle, I don't think a T14 degree would hinder him relative to a UW degree but for cost.

[Big Dog]

Seattle may be a tie-sensitive market

Let me fix that for you:

Seattle is a tie-sensitive market...

[blackacre10]

I'm surprised it's leaning so heavily in favor of UW. You went to UW for undergrad. Seattle may be a tie-sensitive market, but I think going there for college is sufficient. At my T-14 (B/S), people who went to college in Washington (or didn't but were raised in WA) were able to find jobs back in Seattle relatively easily. (Granted, we had PNW firms come for OCI.) Same for Portland, a much more tie-sensitive market. I think the boost from Duke may make you more competitive for Seattle. And, if it doesn't pan out from Duke, you don't have an insane debt-load (notwithstanding parental support) and you'll be competitive for other markets. It's not the same for UW.

You know more than me and I believe you but this honestly flies in the face of everything I have read on here and heard anecdotally. My general impression is that the OP will be dead in the water if they go to Duke. When the hiring partner looks at the OP's resume and sees that his/her only ties are going to college there, having a sibling there, and having a burning desire to live in Seattle, he's going to laugh that resume right into the trashcan. He can easily find a person with stronger ties, better grades, and at a better school for the 1-2 spots at his firm.

I don't know, maybe you're right. But the fact that the OP has modest career goals makes this even more of a no brainer in UW's favor, IMO.

Yeah, I can understand the TLS sentiment, but it just doesn't completely mesh with my experiences at B/S. Again, it might be because it's a strong west coast school and not necessarily because it's a T-14; Duke is on the other side of the country. At least, here, however, people with Seattle ties (even surprisingly limited ties) can get jobs in Seattle.

UW. Duke would only make sense for biglaw, and I don't know how well they do in Seattle either.

No out-of-state law school generally does well in Seattle. If a T14 law student wants to work in Seattle, that student better have strong ties. Which, of course, the OP has.

OP: I think UW would be fine, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Duke in your circumstances. Based on what I little I know about the Seattle market, T14 students with ties who come back do pretty well.

Overall, though, this isn't a great question for TLS. Seattle is a very insular market, and people without direct experience in that market aren't really in a position to be giving you advice. Take everyone's advice here (including mine!) with a grain of salt. Hopefully, someone with direct experience with legal hiring in Seattle will weigh in.

ETA: Oh, and for the reasons I just stated, you definitely should ignore your own poll. There's just too much collective ignorance here about the Seattle market to make your poll worthwhile.

Agreed. UW will probably be fine, since OP isn't aiming for biglaw. And just to echo your point-- I know several people who work biglaw/gov jobs in Seattle and whose only ties are college or being raised there (while attending college and a T-14 elsewhere).

[Power_of_Facing]

And just to echo your point-- I know several people who work biglaw/gov jobs in Seattle and whose only ties are college or being raised there (while attending college and a T-14 elsewhere).

I will second this, with the caveat that most of the people in this category that I know personally only lateraled to Seattle after working elsewhere for a few years.

[BigZuck]

This is dead wrong. UW may well be the more sensible choice given cost and goals, but there is no way a t14 degree will hurt the OP as they compete for jobs against UW grads. UW undergrad and immediate family in the city are definitely enough of a tie.

Duke would increase flexibility.

Prizhaps. I have no reason to not believe the anons in this and other threads though: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=187755

I don't think there is any question that Duke would "increase flexibility" and I don't believe anyone said to the contrary. But how is that responsive to the OP's situation?

One of the posters above you said that going to Duke would find the OP "dead in the water" for Seattle jobs and result in his resume being "laughed into the trashcan." I think this other poster was making this point with respect to Seattle "biglaw" but also trying to say that Duke added no flexibility for smaller firms/government/PI.

Assuming the OP ends up median at either school, I think a Duke degree would still increase the viability for small firm/gov/PI work. This has been my experience getting work in Seattle coming from an east coast T14 with ties. During my 1L summer search, no Seattle employer even asked to look at my grades, and the fact that I'm so far away has counterintuitively made it easier for me to network: The career services office has helped me make Seattle connections, and they've all been very supportive of my job search and eager to meet me when I've been in town. If OP is dead-set on working in Seattle, I don't think a T14 degree would hinder him relative to a UW degree but for cost.

Now I'm confused. The poster you're referring to is me! Granted, I'm just parroting what I've read in that thread I linked to and others I have read.

Are your ties similar to the OP? You're not actually from Washington? That's good info for the hive to have.

[Power_of_Facing]

This is dead wrong. UW may well be the more sensible choice given cost and goals, but there is no way a t14 degree will hurt the OP as they compete for jobs against UW grads. UW undergrad and immediate family in the city are definitely enough of a tie.

Duke would increase flexibility.

Prizhaps. I have no reason to not believe the anons in this and other threads though: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=187755

I don't think there is any question that Duke would "increase flexibility" and I don't believe anyone said to the contrary. But how is that responsive to the OP's situation?

One of the posters above you said that going to Duke would find the OP "dead in the water" for Seattle jobs and result in his resume being "laughed into the trashcan." I think this other poster was making this point with respect to Seattle "biglaw" but also trying to say that Duke added no flexibility for smaller firms/government/PI.

Assuming the OP ends up median at either school, I think a Duke degree would still increase the viability for small firm/gov/PI work. This has been my experience getting work in Seattle coming from an east coast T14 with ties. During my 1L summer search, no Seattle employer even asked to look at my grades, and the fact that I'm so far away has counterintuitively made it easier for me to network: The career services office has helped me make Seattle connections, and they've all been very supportive of my job search and eager to meet me when I've been in town. If OP is dead-set on working in Seattle, I don't think a T14 degree would hinder him relative to a UW degree but for cost.

Now I'm confused. The poster you're referring to is me! Granted, I'm just parroting what I've read in that thread I linked to and others I have read.

Are your ties similar to the OP? You're not actually from Washington? That's good info for the hive to have.

I'm from Washington, but the only indications of my ties on my resume are the listing of my undergrad institution and my work experience in Seattle. Comparing my resume against the OPs would reveal no difference in ties, though I suppose it could come up in an interview.

[Big Dog]

I know several people who work biglaw/gov jobs in Seattle and whose only ties are....being raised there...

for a single guy/gal, it don't get any better than that.....

[BigZuck]

When it comes to ties sensitive employers, I think there is a huge difference between born and raised there and went to college there. Like, huge. Resumes can look just fine but then the high school questions start.

That's just speaking to my own experience though I guess, not specific to Seattle.

[rpupkin]

When it comes to ties sensitive employers, I think there is a huge difference between born and raised there and went to college there. Like, huge. Resumes can look just fine but then the high school questions start.

I've fielded my share of "where did you go to high school" questions as well, but I took them as small talk conversation starters, not a MUST CONFIRM LOCAL TIES test.

[UFlaw99]

Bro simply go to UW because it will cost less and you get no advantage from going to DUKE in Sea-tac. If prestige of DUKE is what you are looking for then you will need to work in the East Coast or the South East where most of the hiring from DUKE will take place.

DUKE simply does not place well in the the Pacific Northwest so going to UW will give you better alumni network and connection in the Northwest than DUKE and will be a far better choice if you want to work in Seattle.

Avoid the extra cost when there is limited or no additional benefit.