Berkeley (sticker) vs UCLA ( full ride) for Big Law Forum

[zuko23]

Title pretty much says it all. Haven't gotten Berkeley's aid package yet but am not expecting much, just want your opinion on if the extra debt is worth the better big law placement. Or at what level of aid does Berkeley become the clear choice.

[TheSpanishMain]

I suppose it depends on how badly you want Big Law. If you're Big Law or bust, then Berkeley. I personally would never take on that debt, but I can't really tell you how much you value Big Law. If you're interested in Big Law but would be okay with some other legal job, then I'd go UCLA for sure.

[sesto elemento]

If you have a full ride at UCLA and are already in at Berkeley then I'm guessing you have numbers that will get you other t-14 acceptances with decent money. Why aren't you considering those other schools? Are you only CA biglaw or bust? FWIW Berkeley is considered one of the more stingier schools.

[zuko23]

I suppose it depends on how badly you want Big Law. If you're Big Law or bust, then Berkeley. I personally would never take on that debt, but I can't really tell you how much you value Big Law. If you're interested in Big Law but would be okay with some other legal job, then I'd go UCLA for sure.

It's big law or bust for me, I am interested in working in tax or finance law.

[zuko23]

If you have a full ride at UCLA and are already in at Berkeley then I'm guessing you have numbers that will get you other t-14 acceptances with decent money. Why aren't you considering those other schools? Are you only CA biglaw or bust? FWIW Berkeley is considered one of the more stingier schools.

Yeah sadly I know about Cal's reputation, that's why I am not expecting much. I have blanketed the t14 and my numbers are good enough to get me into most but not get great $ and I do want to stay in CA which make these two my best options.

[03152016]

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

[zuko23]

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Haven't calculated the exact COA, financing through loans, 3.94/ 170, taken it once.

[Rigo]

3.94/ 170

Great numbers.
You may want to try this once peer schools offer you money:
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm#OtherSchools

I voted for UCLA here with the assumption that Berkeley would in fact be sticker price. Hopefully you're pleasantly surprised when Berkeley financial aid comes in. I understand the desire to stay in California, but for debt minimization, it may be worth it to leave the state for law school. You should get some pretty decent offers at lower T14.

[03152016]

dude, you'll have plenty of good offers in the t14
even a crack at stanford

berkeley at sticker would be a poor outcome with your numbers

[downbeat14]

.

[sesto elemento]

dude, you'll have plenty of good offers in the t14
even a crack at stanford

berkeley at sticker would be a poor outcome with your numbers

+1

This thread is premature IMO. Wait for more fin aid offers before you really have to start thinking about this.

But yeah, don't attend Berkeley or another T-13 at sticker with those numbers. Also be aware that the scholarship Dirigo linked to is a crapshoot (see last year's Cal c/o thread).

[twenty 8]

A full ride at a top 15 LS, how cool is that! What is the question? Take it from someone who passed up T14 discount prices for a free ride (at a TT) and now doesn’t have to spend a dime of my large firm income on debt.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

This really isn't close--UCLA is a much much better choice. Also, as others have said, you have stellar numbers so wherever you go it should be with $$$ if not $$$$.

[Elston Gunn]

Northwestern full ride.

Seriously, wait til you know your options.

[BigZuck]

Northwestern full ride.

Seriously, wait til you know your options.

I agree. Also, retake in the meantime

[thatsnotmyname]

3.94/ 170

Great numbers.
You may want to try this once peer schools offer you money:
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm#OtherSchools

I voted for UCLA here with the assumption that Berkeley would in fact be sticker price. Hopefully you're pleasantly surprised when Berkeley financial aid comes in. I understand the desire to stay in California, but for debt minimization, it may be worth it to leave the state for law school. You should get some pretty decent offers at lower T14.

Berkeley subtly trolling UVA by leaving them off of their list of peer schools.

[03152016]

3.94/ 170

Great numbers.
You may want to try this once peer schools offer you money:
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6957.htm#OtherSchools

I voted for UCLA here with the assumption that Berkeley would in fact be sticker price. Hopefully you're pleasantly surprised when Berkeley financial aid comes in. I understand the desire to stay in California, but for debt minimization, it may be worth it to leave the state for law school. You should get some pretty decent offers at lower T14.

Berkeley subtly trolling UVA by leaving them off of their list of peer schools.

it's bc uva has the highest median grant amount in the t14

[twenty]

I am interested in working in tax or finance law.

Do yourself a huge favor and investigate this more fully than just assuming that biglaw "does it." Also, keep in mind that with sticker debt at Berkeley, your take-home will be substantially lower than you're thinking it will be just looking at salary data online.

UCLA with a full ride overwhelmingly wins out here, and it probably beats some T14s with lower scholarship amounts. If you haven't applied to the rest of the T14, though, do so. You'll probably get similar offers in there.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Berkeley is stingy with scholarships and has the second worst biglaw percentage in the T14 IIRC. So neither

[sesto elemento]

Berkeley is stingy with scholarships and has the second worst biglaw percentage in the T14 IIRC. So neither

That was true of last year's employment numbers, but they were also marginally better than the worst biglaw employer, Georgetown. Also, Cal is PI heavy so there is some self-selection going on. True, the same can be said about NYU, but I think the difference there is that Berkeley's primary market is CA which is smaller than NY so Boalt grads are competing in a smaller market than NYU peeps. Nevertheless, I think we both agree Berkeley at sticker with a big law or bust mentality is a bad idea.

[NYCFAN1]

Berkeley is stingy with scholarships and has the second worst biglaw percentage in the T14 IIRC. So neither

That was true of last year's employment numbers, but they were also marginally better than the worst biglaw employer, Georgetown. Also, Cal is PI heavy so there is some self-selection going on. True, the same can be said about NYU, but I think the difference there is that Berkeley's primary market is CA which is smaller than NY so Boalt grads are competing in a smaller market than NYU peeps. Nevertheless, I think we both agree Berkeley at sticker with a big law or bust mentality is a bad idea.

What % of Cal students participate in OCI?

I don't buy Cal being more PI/gov focused than Michigan/Duke/UVA/Georgetown without stats to back it up.

[sesto elemento]

Berkeley is stingy with scholarships and has the second worst biglaw percentage in the T14 IIRC. So neither

That was true of last year's employment numbers, but they were also marginally better than the worst biglaw employer, Georgetown. Also, Cal is PI heavy so there is some self-selection going on. True, the same can be said about NYU, but I think the difference there is that Berkeley's primary market is CA which is smaller than NY so Boalt grads are competing in a smaller market than NYU peeps. Nevertheless, I think we both agree Berkeley at sticker with a big law or bust mentality is a bad idea.

What % of Cal students participate in OCI?

I don't buy Cal being more PI/gov focused than Michigan/Duke/UVA/Georgetown without stats to back it up.

In 2012, 85% of 2Ls participated in OCI. See slide 4.

However, you also need to know the number of 2Ls that participated in OCI at other schools to make a meaningful comparison. Another alternative is to look at the percent of students who anticipated to work in PI v. the actual numbers. You can look at ATL anticipated v. actual student career plan charts for that. ex, UVA, NYU, Berkeley

[banjo]

IIRC, CLS participation percent is typically in the 90s, with a success rate of 86% for OCI 2013. That should give you an idea.

[NYCFAN1]

Berkeley is stingy with scholarships and has the second worst biglaw percentage in the T14 IIRC. So neither

That was true of last year's employment numbers, but they were also marginally better than the worst biglaw employer, Georgetown. Also, Cal is PI heavy so there is some self-selection going on. True, the same can be said about NYU, but I think the difference there is that Berkeley's primary market is CA which is smaller than NY so Boalt grads are competing in a smaller market than NYU peeps. Nevertheless, I think we both agree Berkeley at sticker with a big law or bust mentality is a bad idea.

What % of Cal students participate in OCI?

I don't buy Cal being more PI/gov focused than Michigan/Duke/UVA/Georgetown without stats to back it up.

In 2012, 85% of 2Ls participated in OCI. See slide 4.

However, you also need to know the number of 2Ls that participated in OCI at other schools to make a meaningful comparison. Another alternative is to look at the percent of students who anticipated to work in PI v. the actual numbers. You can look at ATL anticipated v. actual student career plan charts for that. ex, UVA, NYU, Berkeley

I'm at a similar sub-tier school and we have mid 80s participation, too. It doesn't seem like B students are eschewing firm jobs at a rate greater than my school -- I'd be willing to bet all of MVPBDCNG have similar OCI participation rates, too.

That ATL survey doesn't mean much. It could be an indication that students are truly committed to PI when starting, or it could mean that students are naive about what PI law actually entails when they start law school.

[sesto elemento]

I'm at a similar sub-tier school and we have mid 80s participation, too. It doesn't seem like B students are eschewing firm jobs at a rate greater than my school -- I'd be willing to bet all of MVPBDCNG have similar OCI participation rates, too.

Yeah, I wonder what the participation rates are at other schools as well.

That ATL survey doesn't mean much. It could be an indication that students are truly committed to PI when starting, or it could mean that students are naive about what PI law actually entails when they start law school.

True, but look at the firm category for a school like NYU, 88% of entering 1Ls anticipate working in firms (84% at UVA), by contrast, only 76% of Berkeley 1Ls anticipate that outcome. To me that suggests that fewer Berkeley 1Ls anticipate working in biglaw and instead want to do PI or gov. However, I agree that the ATL survey doesn't mean much w/o knowing what percentage of the total 1L class was surveyed and even then there may be some other problems with it.