Pennsylvania State Law - Dickinson or Penn State Law? Forum

[Celestial_Irony]

As you all probably know, Pennsylvania State Law decided to split its law school into two independent schools, one in Carlisle (Dickinson) and one in State College (Penn State Law). However, both will operate as Pennsylvania State University - Dickinson School of Law. Interested applicants will have to choose which one they want to apply to. I was wondering, which of the two campuses is the well-known one; the one that has the [i]more [/i]distinguished faculty and programs?

Also, I would really appreciate it if only the people who want to answer the question would post. Please do not respond if you are going to say that I should not apply to it because it is not a T-14 school. Thank you!

UPDATE: The issue has been resolved. Thank you!

[North]

You shouldn't not go because neither campus is a T14, you should not go because far less than half of graduates ever become lawyers.

I mean, I don't want to break the rules of your OP. Rules are very important, but it's also important to point out that even when all the ~distinguished professors and programs~ were in one place and there was no confusion to be had about which campus was the ~most prestigious~, that didn't matter enough to anybody for more than half the class to be able to get jobs as, you know, lawyers.

So my answer (because I want to answer your question and comply with the very clear rules you set out for responses) is both campuses are equally not prestigious, and that everybody should not attend either not because neither campus is a T14 but because either campus is likely to lead to unemployment.

[03152016]

no one would say that you shouldn't go because it's not a t14
plenty of people will say you shouldn't go because you will never pay off the debt
penn state has an employment score of 44.5%, it's widely regarded as one of the worst law schools in the country
shockingly, 37% of graduates are underemployed, and only 4% get a large firm job, which is the just about the only way you'll pay off your $240k debt (sticker + cost of living, debt financed)

[Celestial_Irony]

You shouldn't not go because neither campus is a T14, you should not go because far less than half of graduates ever become lawyers.

I mean, I don't want to break the rules of your OP. Rules are very important, but it's also important to point out that even when all the ~distinguished professors and programs~ were in one place and there was no confusion to be had about which campus was the ~most prestigious~, that didn't matter enough to anybody for more than half the class to be able to get jobs as, you know, lawyers.

So my answer (because I want to answer your question and comply with the very clear rules you set out for responses) is both campuses are equally not prestigious, and that everybody should not attend either not because neither campus is a T14 but because either campus is likely to lead to unemployment.

I still appreciate your reply. I feel like I should have explained why I did not want people to tell me that I should not apply. I'm an international student, and I'm planning on working in my home country. Most US law schools are not reputable in my country (including some T-14, btw), and I do not have a chance at a school like Yale or Harvard (which are reputable in my country). So, any school with a good program would do for me. Also, if you are wondering how I am going to practice law in my country with a US degree, then do not worry I've got that covered. I talked to a number of firms here and other places of potential employment. They all hire people with a law degree from the US because they know the value of a US law degree. Namely, the skills that law students in the US learn. School reputation will not matter much. It can help me, but in very rare cases it will hurt my chances. Of course, I would have to go through a certain procedure, and I will not exactly be a traditional lawyer. It's really complicated and it would take a really long post to explain how it works and this post is already too long. See why I didn't put it in my original post? From my experience on online forums, posters tend to get less responses if they write long posts.

[Celestial_Irony]

no one would say that you shouldn't go because it's not a t14
plenty of people will say you shouldn't go because you will never pay off the debt
penn state has an employment score of 44.5%, it's widely regarded as one of the worst law schools in the country
shockingly, 37% of graduates are underemployed, and only 4% get a large firm job, which is the just about the only way you'll pay off your $240k debt (sticker + cost of living, debt financed)

I appreciate your reply. I explained my reasons for why I did not want people to tell me that I should not apply to PSU in my reply to North. I feel like it would be weird if I copy-paste it here.

[03152016]

if all you need is a degree, why are you looking at penn state, which has a COA of $66,000 per year and is one of the worst schools in the country?
why wouldn't you try to go to a higher quality school at less cost? what reason do you have for choosing a very poor school at high cost?

also, are foreign firms really hiring freshly-minted penn state jds and lavishing them with such high compensation that they can service $240k non-forgiveable private loan debt?

[03152016]

also are you from slovakia

[Celestial_Irony]

if all you need is a degree, why are you looking at penn state, which has a COA of $66,000 per year and is one of the worst schools in the country?
why wouldn't you try to go to a higher quality school at less cost? what reason do you have for choosing a very poor school at high cost?

also, are foreign firms really hiring freshly-minted penn state jds and lavishing them with such high compensation that they can service $240k non-forgiveable private loan debt?

A degree is not really all I need. It would have to be from a school with a good program. Also, I'll be getting financial aid from my government.

I chose Penn State because I liked their program, and they are ranked 51 at US News, which makes it the second highest ranked school in Pennsylvania. Plus, my scores are not going to get me anywhere better.

No, I'm not from Slovakia.

[03152016]

usnwr rankings do not make a law program good

penn state is a laughingstock because of its ridiculously high unemployment and low employment rates
and for a state school, especially one with such terrible outcomes, the price tag is absurdly high
prospective law students are fleeing from penn state; their incoming class size has shrunk from 228 students to 132 in the past few years, and i expect another decline this year
and despite shrinking class sizes, they haven't maintained student selectivity; last year alone they had to drop their lsat 25th percentile two points in order to trap enroll enough students

if your government is paying all costs and you are getting a completely free degree, AND there truly is this high demand for PSU grads that you're claiming, it wouldn't be suicidal to attend
if you're on the hook financially though, penn state is an objectively terrible option. we could help you get on the right track if you're willing to hear posters out.

[03152016]

i'm going to sleep, but if you're interested in hearing more about your other options, post:
lsat score, gpa (or category if you studied outside US), country, goals, and terms of your gov't financial aid (scholarship, loans, what it covers, etc)

[Celestial_Irony]

usnwr rankings do not make a law program good

penn state is a laughingstock because of its ridiculously high unemployment and low employment rates
and for a state school, especially one with such terrible outcomes, the price tag is absurdly high
prospective law students are fleeing from penn state; their incoming class size has shrunk from 228 students to 132 in the past few years, and i expect another decline this year
and despite shrinking class sizes, they haven't maintained student selectivity; last year alone they had to drop their lsat 25th percentile two points in order to trap enroll enough students

if your government is paying all costs and you are getting a completely free degree, AND there truly is this high demand for PSU grads that you're claiming, it wouldn't be suicidal to attend
if you're on the hook financially though, penn state is an objectively terrible option. we could help you get on the right track if you're willing to hear posters out.

Thank you for actively responding.

I'm not claiming that there is high demand for PSU graduates here. Actually, there is no demand for any particular school. Most schools in the US are not even known here. That is why reputation will not matter much.

Of course I want to hear what you guys have to say, that is why I am here.

[North]

How are you paying for this? Explain in detail. Are these government loans? Grants? How much do they cover? The most important consideration for you, it looks like, is going to be cost. Give us what you know.

[timbs4339]

I'm genuinely curious to know in what country people actually think that a US law school teaches you valuable skills (that you can't get at a law school in your own country) as opposed to just trading you a credential for government backed loans. Are they just under the impression that Americans wouldn't pay so much money for degrees unless they actually delivered that much value? Americans overpay for things that have little value all the time.

[rwhyAn]

I posted about PSU in detail in another post http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150.

Here are the takeaways from that post about PSU Law:

Bar Passage required: 51%
Grads known to be making $55,000 or more: 25%
Average indebtedness: around $125,000

Basically, if you're paying half-tuition or more, there's a very slim chance that you'll make enough money to cover your loan payments.

[FSK]

If you don't literally bleed central PA, you shouldn't go to either school. For the campus in Carlisle, if you don't know what a hachi dog is you don't have enough ties.

[AReasonableMan]

The only people who advocate for a school like this are those entering law school now or currently there, i.e. confirmation bias.

They're bad. You're in the middle of no where. There's no legal market in Hickstown, PA. Pittsburgh is a tiny legal market, and not taking sub-top five percent into desirable positions. Philly has 50 schools it considers before Penn State.

You don't go to this type of school for a job or career but to party before 3 years, and go out with a bang. For this, UNLV and USD are much better options. You need to focus on fun, not on a pederast's dark journey into bumble land. This isn't so much a law school option as much as it is borrow the government's money, and go crazy option.

[FutureSuperLawyer]

The Penn State Campus appears to have the more well known professors and also has the resources of the greater university (business school, international studies program etc.) Dickinson is isolated. Although it has, at times, said it has a focus on international law, its hard to believe it will get far. Almost none of its students end up practicing at big law firms, the federal gov't or in foreign countries. If you have to choose btw the Penn state campus and dickinson, I think its an easy choice: Penn state.

Also, Dickinson may simply whither and die now that it has been spun off of Penn State. There is a good analysis by a law professor at the U. of Colorado (a better law school than either Dickinson or Penn State) here: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/201 ... -dickinson. Having a degree from a U.S. law school that doesn't exist anymore may be problematic.

[rickgrimes69]

usnwr rankings do not make a law program good

penn state is a laughingstock because of its ridiculously high unemployment and low employment rates
and for a state school, especially one with such terrible outcomes, the price tag is absurdly high
prospective law students are fleeing from penn state; their incoming class size has shrunk from 228 students to 132 in the past few years, and i expect another decline this year
and despite shrinking class sizes, they haven't maintained student selectivity; last year alone they had to drop their lsat 25th percentile two points in order to trap enroll enough students

if your government is paying all costs and you are getting a completely free degree, AND there truly is this high demand for PSU grads that you're claiming, it wouldn't be suicidal to attend
if you're on the hook financially though, penn state is an objectively terrible option. we could help you get on the right track if you're willing to hear posters out.

Thank you for actively responding.

I'm not claiming that there is high demand for PSU graduates here. Actually, there is no demand for any particular school. Most schools in the US are not even known here. That is why reputation will not matter much.

Of course I want to hear what you guys have to say, that is why I am here.

If hiring partners in your country are really completely and totally unaware of U.S. law school reputations, forget rankings and go to a school with an impressive sounding name. Might I suggest Thomas Jefferson School of Law? It's one of the absolute worst, but hey, T.J. was a founding father so it has to be good! You might also try American School of Law (bonus points if you can trick someone into thinking it's the national university of America).

[jchiles]

Everything in this thread is accurate, you can't argue with the numbers and either campus of Penn State can only possibly make sense for those who pay nothing to be there, are committed to staying in the central PA universe, and who have considerable connections to the business and government in that area. Neither school feeds into a legal market of any real size or one that even has regular hiring needs.

That said, I do go to PSU and it sounds like you have an unusual situation, so feel free to PM me. But other prospective students should really look elsewhere, Pitt and Temple have somewhat better outcomes, cost less at sticker (but should still only be attended for free) and are at least positioned in larger legal markets.