169 lsat, 3.8 gpa: lots and lots of questions Forum

[neubreed]

Hi all-
long time lurker, first time poster:

just took the LSAT for the second time and scored a 169 (167 the 1st time). Devastated cos I was PTing around 172-3. 3.8 GPA.

I'm 24, took some time between high school & college, not particularly interested in dragging things out for much longer. Some previous work experience as a receptionist at a law firm for the past 3 summers.

I was thinking of biting the bullet, applying anyway and then, if god forbid I don't get into any of my top choices, either transferring or just reapplying next cycle (subsequently taking some time off and studying for the LSAT properly in the spring).

Is this a good idea or am I screwing myself over here? I've already requested LORs, etc. - does anyone know if the LSAC is able to 'hold on' to this stuff for a year? How seriously would a 2-3 point LSAT boost help me out in terms of both admission & scholarships? I really want to go to Stanford or Columbia, but it looks like neither of those will be happening - recommendations as to schools to look at for international law?

Much obliged,
Neu

PS: I couldn't figure where exactly to post this, my apologies if I ended up in the wrong forum.

[tuhaybey]

You never know, but odds are you get T14, but not top 5 with that lsat/gpa. Always possible if you have other interesting things about you and you went to a tough undergrad school.

Transferring from a T14 to a top 5 school is probably kind of a dicey plan. First off, you need awesome grades to do that, which are by no means guaranteed. Law school is very tough and very different than undergrad. You may totally destroy everybody else on grades, but you can't really count on it. Also, a lot of people start law school thinking they're going to want to transfer and end up just deciding it isn't worth it and staying where they started. Transferring has a lot of major downsides. Socially it is very isolating, and you end up with way, way, more debt too. So, my advice would be to decide whether or not to go to law school based on the school you get accepted at, not the one you hope to transfer to.

Generally speaking, if you're on the fence for any reason, the right answer is not to go to law school. Like 90% of law school graduates end up regretting it even at the top schools. In no circumstance should you go to law school if you wouldn't be going to a top 20 law school.

As for international law, you need to be absolutely clear on one thing first- if you got to a top school, you will be working for biglaw. Period. Put any dreams you may have about working for Amnesty International or the UN completely out of your head. Top law school = biglaw. Literally like 100% of graduates from the top law schools go to biglaw. If you really, really, want to do something public interest oriented, your best bet is to go to a lower ranked school that will give you a free ride. If you go to a top school, you will have enough debt that you just can't rationally justify not going to biglaw. Everybody thinks they will be the exception, nobody actually is.

So, anyways, keep that in mind. Biglaw international law is not necessarily that cool. It is basically just generic corporate law where your client, who is in whatever country you're practicing in, is negotiating a contract with a company in another country. But, if you're still into it anyways, NYU or Georgetown might be good options.

[jingosaur]

Not a bad idea to apply this cycle, but you should definitely use that third LSAT take. Either take in February or June and the schools that you apply to will either take it into consideration this cycle or you can just reapply next cycle if you think you'll do better.

You have a pretty good shot at getting some $$ at the bottom half of the T14 and one of CCN might be nice to you.

[neubreed]

tuhaybey - thanks for the reply. You know, I transferred as an undergrad and experienced that very thing, but somehow failed to realize it would apply in law school. You've definitely given me something to think about, I appreciate it.

As for the bit regarding big law - yeah, that's pretty much what I was aiming for. I don't mind biglaw, it's just that I'm originally from Europe, so I figured my chance to shine would be with foreign clients. Plus there's always the hope that I would get to travel, but we'll see how all of that will work out (if at all).

And I have no intention of going anywhere below a T14, tbh. If I don't make it in for whatever reason, I'll just be reapplying until I do. I'm not playing around with hundreds of thousands of $$$ in loans without maximizing my chances for surviving all this nonsense.

-----

Jingo - thanks for input, I'm leaning towards doing just that, keeping my fingers crossed, and hoping that I can appear interesting enough. Do you think I should wait for responses from schools and then retake the LSAT in an attempt to get more $$$ out of them, or try to take it before I hear from them?

-----

One more question: I went to UC Berkeley as an undergrad and have nothing against staying in the Bay Area, but I hear surprisingly little about Boalt, except the recent revelation regarding its poor employment rate. If anyone has any information to offer, I'd love to hear it.

[tuhaybey]

As for the bit regarding big law - yeah, that's pretty much what I was aiming for. I don't mind biglaw, it's just that I'm originally from Europe, so I figured my chance to shine would be with foreign clients. Plus there's always the hope that I would get to travel, but we'll see how all of that will work out (if at all).

That sounds very reasonable. Being from Europe will be an advantage in that practice and you probably would get to travel at least occasionally. Glad to hear you won't go below T14. I think that's smart.

All I know about Boalt is that a friend of mine went there a few years ago and liked it.

[rickgrimes69]

Like 90% of law school graduates end up regretting it even at the top schools.

Do they? Any source for that claim or did you just pull that number out of thin air?

In no circumstance should you go to law school if you wouldn't be going to a top 20 law school.

Shit like this is how TLS gets its rep as being "elitist." As long as you keep costs low and don't have lofty employment goals, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a lower ranked school in the area one wants to work.

As for international law, you need to be absolutely clear on one thing first- if you got to a top school, you will be working for biglaw. Period. Put any dreams you may have about working for Amnesty International or the UN completely out of your head. Top law school = biglaw. Literally like 100% of graduates from the top law schools go to biglaw.

This is just laughably untrue.

If you really, really, want to do something public interest oriented, your best bet is to go to a lower ranked school that will give you a free ride. If you go to a top school, you will have enough debt that you just can't rationally justify not going to biglaw.

Except for that whole PSLF thing.

But, if you're still into it anyways, NYU or Georgetown might be good options.

I'm super curious to hear your justification for recommending those two schools over any others (especially GULC).

[tuhaybey]

Do they? Any source for that claim or did you just pull that number out of thin air?

Just out of thin air.

Shit like this is how TLS gets its rep as being "elitist." As long as you keep costs low and don't have lofty employment goals, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a lower ranked school in the area one wants to work.

That is not good advice. Nationally, only 57% of law school graduates have a job that requires bar passage even 9 months after graduation. Think about the situation that remaining 43% are in. They've given up 3 years of income, they've often taken on $200k in unsecured debt that can't even be wiped out by declaring bankruptcy and which is accumulating interest at a rapid pace, and they're back right where they started. And even beyond that, the question should not be just whether you can avoid that horrific fate, the question is whether going to law school will leave you happier and better off than not going. A far bigger slice than 43% ends up on the wrong side of that question. Many, many, law school graduates who do find legal work- the lucky ones- still end up in jobs they hate making less money once you account for the loan payments than they were making or would have been making before law school.

Now, the bright line "top 20 or die" line might be too much. You could have a viable plan at a slightly lower ranked school if you were getting a free ride. But even then, you should think very carefully about it because the actual debt is only part of the cost. You're still giving up 3 years of your life and 3 years of earnings and you're still probably giving up some control over your career options.

[rickgrimes69]

Do they? Any source for that claim or did you just pull that number out of thin air?

Just out of thin air.

Shit like this is how TLS gets its rep as being "elitist." As long as you keep costs low and don't have lofty employment goals, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a lower ranked school in the area one wants to work.

That is not good advice. Nationally, only 57% of law school graduates have a job that requires bar passage even 9 months after graduation. Think about the situation that remaining 43% are in. They've given up 3 years of income, they've often taken on $200k in unsecured debt that can't even be wiped out by declaring bankruptcy and which is accumulating interest at a rapid pace, and they're back right where they started. And even beyond that, the question should not be just whether you can avoid that horrific fate, the question is whether going to law school will leave you happier and better off than not going. A far bigger slice than 43% ends up on the wrong side of that question. Many, many, law school graduates who do find legal work- the lucky ones- still end up in jobs they hate making less money once you account for the loan payments than they were making or would have been making before law school.

Pardon my French, but duh. Do you know what website you're on? Preaching to the choir, bub.

Now, the bright line "top 20 or die" line might be too much. You could have a viable plan at a slightly lower ranked school if you were getting a free ride. But even then, you should think very carefully about it because the actual debt is only part of the cost. You're still giving up 3 years of your life and 3 years of earnings and you're still probably giving up some control over your career options.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that except for characterizing your "top 20 or bust" line as merely "too much." It's flat-out stupid. There are plenty of respectable law schools below that line which are worth attending on a hefty scholarship. I'm not advocating that anyone attend TJSL but there is a huge, gaping chasm between that and respectable flagships like 'Bama, UNC, BC/BU, etc.

[TheSpanishMain]

Literally like 100% of graduates from the top law schools go to biglaw.

Beaten, but this isn't even close to true, even if you define the top schools as just Yale. It doesn't even work as hyperbole. I don't know why you're pulling these random numbers out of your ass.

[Nomo]

2-3 points could make a big difference, both in your ability to get into Stanford/Columbia and in your ability to get enough scholarship money for a place like Duke or Cornell to be worth it. Don't leave those points on the table.

[jingosaur]

2-3 points could make a big difference, both in your ability to get into Stanford/Columbia and in your ability to get enough scholarship money for a place like Duke or Cornell to be worth it. Don't leave those points on the table.

This is WAY more true than you could even imagine. With your GPA, each point on the LSAT means tens of thousands of dollars, and maybe more, when you're in the 167-173 range. 3 points on the LSAT is the difference between Georgetown and NYU or Michigan and Columbia.

[neubreed]

2-3 points could make a big difference, both in your ability to get into Stanford/Columbia and in your ability to get enough scholarship money for a place like Duke or Cornell to be worth it. Don't leave those points on the table.

This is WAY more true than you could even imagine. With your GPA, each point on the LSAT means tens of thousands of dollars, and maybe more, when you're in the 167-173 range. 3 points on the LSAT is the difference between Georgetown and NYU or Michigan and Columbia.

I'm willing to retake, but then the question is - can I apply, and then retake in February in order to ask for more $$$? Or should I straight up not apply this cycle?

I'm not willing to retake in December - I don't want to apply that late, and it's right during finals.

[BigZuck]

Just put off applying to law school for a cycle if you have to. Law school isn't going anywhere.

Literally like a billion law school applicants have done that and had good results.

Don't throw away your future cuz impatience

[patogordo]

when you consider how much law school at sticker costs, you would probably make more money taking a year off and retaking than you will at any point in your life

[McAvoy2]

As others have said, retake.

[neubreed]

It's not really impatience, it's just me taking a good hard look at my life - as mentioned, I'll be 25 as a 1L if I apply this year, and I'm not interested in dragging things out further. Further, I have some other, personal reasons for needing to get this show on the road.

The other issue is that obviously there's no guarantee that I won't choke again and end up with the same (or even a lower) score. I'm not sure I'm comfortable sitting out an entire year in the hopes that I'll luck out.

That said, I'm willing to retake, but I was wondering whether it would be possible to basically send my applications in, and then retake the LSAT in February, to see if I can ask for a larger scholarship at the schools I get into - is this a thing that has been/ can be done?

[patogordo]

i mean, i understand where you're at, and if you don't want to spend another year studying for the LSAT then that's okay. if you feel like 25 is old and you need to get going on a career, i'm not going to argue with you, even though I disagree. just don't go to law school. problem solved.

[Tiago Splitter]

That said, I'm willing to retake, but I was wondering whether it would be possible to basically send my applications in, and then retake the LSAT in February, to see if I can ask for a larger scholarship at the schools I get into - is this a thing that has been/ can be done?

yes and yes.

[whereskyle]

I ED'd to northwestern when i was in your position, where I am now. If you just want a prestigious job, you should definitely go to HYS, but you will be in 100k+ debt. Im taking out minimal living expenses debt so ill be at about 50k at graduation, which is a lot for my public defense aspirations. While part of me wishes i had waited to retake for hyscc, part of me thinks i still would have reservations about the 6 figure debt. If you want cheap t14 to biglaw, ED NU.

[patogordo]

I ED'd to northwestern when i was in your position, where I am now. If you just want a prestigious job, you should definitely go to HYS, but you will be in 100k+ debt. Im taking out minimal living expenses debt so ill be at about 50k at graduation, which is a lot for my public defense aspirations. While part of me wishes i had waited to retake for hyscc, part of me thinks i still would have reservations about the 6 figure debt. If you want cheap t14 to biglaw, ED NU.

the grass is not greener bro. you did good

[TheSpanishMain]

FYI, the average of a 1L is probably around 24. Being a 25 year old 1L is no way weird or unusual.

[jingosaur]

That said, I'm willing to retake, but I was wondering whether it would be possible to basically send my applications in, and then retake the LSAT in February, to see if I can ask for a larger scholarship at the schools I get into - is this a thing that has been/ can be done?

yes and yes.

Agree with this. Apply this cycle and retake and if you don't get something you feel comfortable with, apply again next year. The cost of applying is not material when considering everything else.

[jbagelboy]

Do they? Any source for that claim or did you just pull that number out of thin air?

Just out of thin air.

Shit like this is how TLS gets its rep as being "elitist." As long as you keep costs low and don't have lofty employment goals, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a lower ranked school in the area one wants to work.

That is not good advice. Nationally, only 57% of law school graduates have a job that requires bar passage even 9 months after graduation. Think about the situation that remaining 43% are in. They've given up 3 years of income, they've often taken on $200k in unsecured debt that can't even be wiped out by declaring bankruptcy and which is accumulating interest at a rapid pace, and they're back right where they started. And even beyond that, the question should not be just whether you can avoid that horrific fate, the question is whether going to law school will leave you happier and better off than not going. A far bigger slice than 43% ends up on the wrong side of that question. Many, many, law school graduates who do find legal work- the lucky ones- still end up in jobs they hate making less money once you account for the loan payments than they were making or would have been making before law school.

Now, the bright line "top 20 or die" line might be too much. You could have a viable plan at a slightly lower ranked school if you were getting a free ride. But even then, you should think very carefully about it because the actual debt is only part of the cost. You're still giving up 3 years of your life and 3 years of earnings and you're still probably giving up some control over your career options.

you made a series of ridiculous over generalizations and several just patently false assertions, and rickgrimes was completely justified calling you out on it.

[LawzGurl]

Holla I got a 2.8 and 144 lsat test which school should i go to?

[jbagelboy]

Holla I got a 2.8 and 144 lsat test which school should i go to?

yale