PSA for 0Ls: NU's AJD Program Could Save you ~200k Forum

[kcdc1]

Introduction: Many qualified T14 applicants make it through the application process without hearing about or considering Northwestern's Accelerated JD (AJD) program. The school does not do a great job marketing the program, but if you are a 0L with work experience and decent stats, you should consider applying.

How it works: As an AJD, you complete 5 semesters over 2 calendar years (as opposed to the traditional route of 6 semesters over 3 calendar years), and you take one extra course each semester. Basically, you start in the summer with 15-30 fellow AJDs, and and then you join the full 2L class in the fall. You do the same OCI as the 3-year students, and you have the same post-2L summer open for a summer associate position.

Upsides: While total tuition is the same, you graduate a year earlier. Assuming a biglaw salary, an AJD earns 160k + bonus more than a 3-year student in the third year after matriculation, is a class year ahead of a 3-year student in terms of compensation and experience every year thereafter, and pays less loan interest due to faster repayment schedule (idly collecting interest for only 2 years instead of 3). Assuming equal financial help, at any given point past graduation, you will be about 100k-200k ahead of where you would have been in a 3-year program.

Soft benefits include smaller class sizes, getting to know some of the top profs, having the school to yourself over the summer, and a relatively reasonable and mature peer group. Also, some people don't like the ivory tower atmosphere of law school and blasphemously see a JD as a means to practice law. If you are one such practical person, 2 years might be better for you than 3.

Downsides: The law school world is still built around the 3-year model. You will be going into OCI approximately 11 weeks after you start school, and you'll need to be ready to explain to employers why you are a good candidate for their firm. It's manageable, but you need to have strong time management skills, and doing some interview prep before you start isn't a bad idea. Also, your summer classes will be curved against a smaller group that is mature, intelligent and hard-working. The curve mandates that some of those people will not get the grades they want. That said, employment outcomes are good, and they are not as inextricably linked to GPA as TLS would have you believe. Work experience, soft skills and networking count, and many AJDs find that they can distinguish themselves in these categories.

Conclusion: The AJD program is a good deal financially for some people, and you might one of those people. Happy to take Q's if you have them.

[twenty]

Does the AJD program offer the same level of scholarship money the JD program does? Northwestern is usually pretty generous with funding, and it'd suck to lose out on being able to apply to the JD program without equal scholarship consideration.

[js1663]

If you apply for the AJD, are you automatically considered for the regular program if you don't get into the AJD program?

[kcdc1]

Does the AJD program offer the same level of scholarship money the JD program does? Northwestern is usually pretty generous with funding, and it'd suck to lose out on being able to apply to the JD program without equal scholarship consideration.

I don't ask what my peers are paying in terms of tuition. I can tell you that I was accepted into more than one T14, and Northwestern offered a larger tuition discount than the other schools that admitted me. My impression is that NU is at least as generous with AJD's as 3-year applicants (it's probably tougher to find good AJD applicants).

Is it possible to get into this program with good enough numbers even if you don't have significant work experience?

Also, on that note, if you apply for the AJD, are you automatically considered for the regular program if you don't get into the AJD program?

As to the experience requirement, the short answer is yes, you might get in without a great resume. That said, it's a small program, so applicant quality (read: competitiveness) will vary from year to year. I will say that the program is probably a better fit for candidates that have spent time in grad school or 2+ years in the workforce, but I suspect that numbers and a solid interview would get you considered even with unimpressive WE. Not on the admissions committee tho.

As to the second question, yes, you are moved from the AJD pool into the traditional applicant pool if you aren't admitted when the AJD apps are evaluated at the end of January. Also, if you are admitted but later decide the program isn't for you, you may be able to work with the admissions committee to lateral into the 3-year program.

[kcdc1]

I should mention that employment outcomes from the AJD program are historically similar to those for the student body as a whole. During my job search, I used my participation in the AJD program as an opportunity to demonstrate that I am interested in getting back to work and have strong time-management skills, and I didn't get any push-back from interviewers on those points. Also, from a risk-minimization perspective, there is some advantage to completing OCI after only one semester's investment.

[bl1nds1ght]

I should mention that employment outcomes from the AJD program are historically similar to those for the student body as a whole. During my job search, I used my participation in the AJD program as an opportunity to demonstrate that I am interested in getting back to work and have strong time-management skills, and I didn't get any push-back from interviewers on those points. Also, from a risk-minimization perspective, there is some advantage to completing OCI after only one semester's investment.

That's really cool. How long ago were you in the AJD program?

If you don't mind me asking, what was your background like before matriculating? I'll have anywhere from 4 to 6 yrs of work exp as a corporate para before I may be looking to apply.

Where did your friends in the program end up after graduating?

[kcdc1]

I should mention that employment outcomes from the AJD program are historically similar to those for the student body as a whole. During my job search, I used my participation in the AJD program as an opportunity to demonstrate that I am interested in getting back to work and have strong time-management skills, and I didn't get any push-back from interviewers on those points. Also, from a risk-minimization perspective, there is some advantage to completing OCI after only one semester's investment.

That's really cool. How long ago were you in the AJD program?

If you don't mind me asking, what was your background like before matriculating? I'll have anywhere from 4 to 6 yrs of work exp as a corporate para before I may be looking to apply.

Where did your friends in the program end up after graduating?

I am a current student. I had ~5 years of WE related to IP law. Speaking as to AJD's both in my class and others, employment outcomes seem to be what you'd expect from Northwestern generally: biglaw focus, somewhat more concentrated placement in Chicago firms with a mix of NYC, CA, DC and elsewhere, and a couple people each year interested in PI. As in the general student body, there are also people still looking for positions.

I think experience as a corporate paralegal would be a good background for an AJD. You know what law firm life is about which should help you have a successful interviewing cycle. Outside of time management skills, one of the biggest challenges is being prepared to interview 11 weeks into law school and fitting your narrative into exactly what XYZ firm is looking to hire.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

An NU dean I spoke w/ at an LSAC forum said they are "working on" possibly eliminating the curve for AJDs. She herself said it was "challenging."

I was pressing her about employment outcomes for those that are below median w/ AJD.

[bl1nds1ght]

I think experience as a corporate paralegal would be a good background for an AJD. You know what law firm life is about which should help you have a successful interviewing cycle. Outside of time management skills, one of the biggest challenges is being prepared to interview 11 weeks into law school and fitting your narrative into exactly what XYZ firm is looking to hire.

Thank you for the response!

Sorry, I should have specified corporate in-house para (insurance, combination of claims lit and directly supporting GC and staff attys in home office legal, ~$5 bn company).

What you have to say about the challenges concerning the short turnaround for OCI does seem like it could be a downside, but your earlier comment about framing the response around wanting to get back into the workforce as quickly as possible sounds good. That honestly would be my goal. It's not like I'd be lying, haha.

[bl1nds1ght]

An NU dean I spoke w/ at an LSAC forum said they are "working on" possibly eliminating the curve for AJDs. She herself said it was "challenging."

I was pressing her about employment outcomes for those that are below median w/ AJD.

Wow. What kind of effect would that have on employers who may otherwise rely on the curve to judge the quality of an AJD candidate?

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

An NU dean I spoke w/ at an LSAC forum said they are "working on" possibly eliminating the curve for AJDs. She herself said it was "challenging."

I was pressing her about employment outcomes for those that are below median w/ AJD.

Wow. What kind of effect would that have on employers who may otherwise rely on the curve to judge the quality of an AJD candidate?

no idea

[kcdc1]

I am not privy to discussions centered around the curve in the AJD program, but as an applicant, I would not count on the curve being removed. There is an argument to be made for its removal on the grounds that it's unfair to curve such small classes, but counter-arguments can be (and have been) made that eliminating the curve for AJDs would put the 3-year students at an unfair disadvantage. It's a tough call. (Keep in mind, also, that the curve discussion centers only around 5 summer classes. Those classes are 5/6 of your GPA at OCI -- when GPA matters most -- but they become a small fraction of your overall GPA by graduation. At least in past years, NU has thrown in one uncurved class over the summer which seemed to help OCI GPA's overall.)

My advice to a person considering the program would be expect employment outcomes consistent with those from the general student body. I am not the best person to comment on employment outcomes in general, but if you're interested in IP, you can PM me and I'll be happy to share more about my experience.

[bl1nds1ght]

You do the same OCI as the 3-year students, and you have the same post-2L summer open for a summer associate position.

I'm reading the information page on Northwestern's site right now, but am still wondering about the OCI process.

AJD students go through the fall OCI after the first 11 weeks after starting in May. When do the students begin their summer associate positions? Over which summers?

Is there a second OCI for the AJDs, or does the whole process live and die by that OCI after the first 11 weeks?

[kcdc1]

AJD students go through the fall OCI after the first 11 weeks after starting in May. When do the students begin their summer associate positions? Over which summers?

AJD timeline goes like this:

10 week summer bootcamp followed by one week of exams
OCI -- the same OCI that everyone else does
Fall semester
Spring semester
Open summer (in most cases, used for summer associate position)
2nd Fall semester
2nd Spring semester
Graduate

[bl1nds1ght]

AJD students go through the fall OCI after the first 11 weeks after starting in May. When do the students begin their summer associate positions? Over which summers?

AJD timeline goes like this:

10 week summer bootcamp followed by one week of exams
OCI -- the same OCI that everyone else does
Fall semester
Spring semester
Open summer (in most cases, used for summer associate position)
2nd Fall semester
2nd Spring semester
Graduate

Thank you very much for answering. That's pretty intense.

Since there's no fall OCI that second year, it sounds like people are pretty dependent on being offered after their SA positions or on having to network and apply to jobs outside of school. Interesting.

[kcdc1]

Since this thread is intended for 0L's, I suppose more info about OCI might be helpful.

Most large firms engage in a questionable practice wherein they hire for entry-level positions almost exclusively through a process akin to speed dating. As a law student, AJD or otherwise, on-campus interviewing (OCI) before your 2L year is your best shot to catch on in biglaw. During this process, employers do not expect you to know any substantive law. Instead, they are looking for candidates that are (1) smart enough to keep up, (2) likeable, and (3) will not embarrass the firm. You check box (1) by having a GPA near or preferably above the firm's cutoff, and you check boxes (2) and (3) by being poised, prepared, and friendly.

Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, you need to be selling what the firm is buying. This means having something useful to say when they ask why you went to law school and in what field you'd like to practice.

As an AJD, the challenge isn't getting up to speed in terms of knowledge of the law (no knowledge is expected) -- it's having a response to "Why this firm? Why this practice?" Of course, these questions don't have to be a problem for any given applicant. If you have work experience (or are otherwise a strong interviewer), they will probably be easy questions for you.

[20141023]

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[wojo98]

Can apply to the NU AJD with only a GMAT score as well (which is a huge boon if you have a proclivity for math, etc.). Not sure why admissions doesn't market this fact more aggresively to young professionals.

Re: OCI -
At worst AJD big law placement is in line with NU at large - which is top six in the country (using the NLJ250 as a quick and dirty big law proxy - 2014 data here). Annually outperforms Berkeley, Virginia, Duke, Michigan, etc. (at least going back to 2008 data, with some small deviation in 2010).

[Mack.Hambleton]

Can apply to the NU AJD with only a GMAT score as well (which is a huge boon if you have a proclivity for math, etc.). Not sure why admissions doesn't market this fact more aggresively to young professionals.

Re: OCI -
At worst AJD big law placement is in line with NU at large - which is top six in the country (using the NLJ250 as a quick and dirty big law proxy - 2014 data here). Annually outperforms Berkeley, Virginia, Duke, Michigan, etc. (at least going back to 2008 data, with some small deviation in 2010).

HYSCCNP >>> NU

maybe top 8

[Nat Sherman]

The class profile, http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... ofile.html, looks a little less impressive than it did a few years ago, but still looks like it's mostly people with consulting, I-Banking, finance or tech jobs. I think two years ago their class mostly consisted of the Big 4, tech firms like Google, and top I-banks. Definitely something to consider, but these are people with high quality tech and finance backgrounds which is why they're able to get jobs after 11 weeks of school.

[kcdc1]

The class profile, http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... ofile.html, looks a little less impressive than it did a few years ago, but still looks like it's mostly people with consulting, I-Banking, finance or tech jobs. I think two years ago their class mostly consisted of the Big 4, tech firms like Google, and top I-banks. Definitely something to consider, but these are people with high quality tech and finance backgrounds which is why they're able to get jobs after 11 weeks of school.

While I like the idea that AJDs are super-impressive, I do not believe that working for Google, McKinsey, etc. is necessary in order to have success at OCI. Plenty of AJDs have had success at OCI without those credentials.

OCI is exactly the same for an AJD as it is for a 3-year student. Employers intend to hire students -- anything substantial on your resume is a bonus.

The difference for an AJD is the amount of time you have to prepare for OCI. The typical K-JD may need time to figure out how to appear professional. This includes items like drafting a resume and cover letter, doing mock interviews, hashing out and practicing delivering narratives about 'why litigation,' purchasing a suit an having it tailored, etc. As an AJD, OCI comes more quickly, so you want to have that stuff under control before you matriculate.

I do not think that AJD's need to have exceptional WE in order to succeed as OCI. But you do need to be able to project yourself professionally shortly after matriculating. Much of that can be handled as an applicant -- i.e. you could tailor your resume for law firm positions today -- but if things like 'drafting a cover letter' sound unduly intimidating to you, the AJD program might not be a great fit.

[bl1nds1ght]

What worries me is the short turnaround for those 11 week grades and then no 2nd OCI.

If you don't get something substantive out of that OCI and don't get summer work, what happens? Network and hustle?

[kcdc1]

You will have your grades by OCI. The profs turn them around quickly. And I think there technically is a 3L OCI, but biglaw firms do most of their entry-level hiring from their 2L SA's, so there aren't many spots for 3L's. That's a law school thing rather than an AJD thing or a Northwestern thing. For whatever reason, the legal profession arranges its hiring 2 years out, and it's tougher to find a good gig if you miss the wave.

There are avenues by which to respond to striking out at OCI (mailing, symplicity, job fairs, PI, gov't, clerk, etc), but this isn't the thread for that discussion.

[bananatopia]

deleted

[patogordo]

cannot believe this almost got to page 2 without someone sperging all over the specious claim in the title