Cornell or Duke (from Waitlist) Forum

[tinagroan]

-The schools you are considering: Duke and Cornell
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Cornell:$178,287. I can't accurately post the amount for Duke because I was just accepted today and I don't know what sort of financial aid might be offered. Tuition at sticker is $54,460. I'll be applying for a need/merit based scholarship, but I'm not sure what they offer to waitlist students this late in the game. Anyone who could offer insight is greatly appreciated.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings: Loans, $20,000 in savings, some parental support. At Cornell I've already figured it so fall semester I would be paying around $8,000 out-of-pocket and the rest would be covered by loans.
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any): From smalltown PA, would work anywhere but not would prefer not New York
-Your general career goals: I loved the idea of working in comparative/international law, particularly for an NGO. Since essentially committing to Cornell (and hearing that international law doesn't exist) I've been slowly getting more and more used to the idea of working in corporate law for at least a few years, but that was never the reason I wanted to go to law school, so if Duke can offer better job placements in non-corporate fields that would be a huge boon.
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 167/3.87
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 2

I have until next Friday to make this decision. Duke was always the school I really wanted to go to, but this late in the year...about three weeks before Duke's program starts...I'm not sure if making the switch is worth it. I also already have an apartment in Ithaca. Does anyone know if affordable housing is still available in Durham? Has anyone else been in this position before and has some insight one way or the other as to what is the smartest decision?
Again, I'm sorry I don't have a final number on what the COA would be at Duke. I'm still trying to figure that out myself. Let me ask in a general sense...is Duke worth paying a little more than Cornell? A lot more? (Cost of living in Ithaca is also crazy high compared to Durham...like my current rent in Ithaca is 1,700 a month.) Is it worth paying sticker at Duke and forgoing a $20,000 Cornell scholarship?
Thanks for any advice you can give me! It's so down to the wire now and I want to make a fully informed decision.

[jk148706]

.

[rahulg91]

You don't want NYC? ENJOY DOOK.

[redsoxfan1989]

(Cost of living in Ithaca is also crazy high compared to Durham...like my current rent in Ithaca is 1,700 a month.)

Dude, where are you living? I am paying a third of that, and the studios that I've seen posted are all around 1 grand.

Anyways, these are peer schools and I would go with whichever gets the cost down the lowest. Job outcomes from these places are pretty much the same.

[MrSebastian]

For $500/mo with a roomate you can get a very nice apartment in Durham. But seriously, why would you want to freeze all year/willingly live in Ithaca if costs are similar?

[PB&J.D.]

I would have to agree with RedSox on this one. While tuition is a bit higher at Cornell, I guess you have to wait & see about merit/need aid from Duke (especially this late in the summer). Definitely try to leverage any offers you have with Duke. In terms of job placement, New York tends to be the major destination from these two schools due to its large class sizes, but I think Cornell tends to be more focused on New York, while Duke opens more opportunities in the South (albeit ties can play a big role).

tl;dr Cornell is heavily focused on NY, try to negotiate as much as possible with Duke.

but TCR: retake for more $$$s

[Yea All Right]

Incoming Cornell 1L here. Cornell is really focused on NY biglaw, maybe too much for your taste, but Duke's biggest markets are NYC, DC, and North Carolina. (FWIW I'm planning on going back to California after law school.) Surprisingly according to LST Duke has a lower public interest percentage (1.2% vs. 5.7%), but it has a higher government percentage (5.8% vs. 4.7%). Duke's federal + state clerkships percentage is higher than Cornell's, but Cornell has a higher percentage when it comes to federal clerkships only.

Regarding finances, I believe Duke's lower tuition and cost of living will make it cheaper than Cornell if you end up getting the same $20,000 scholarship (or maybe even a little smaller scholarship). You could try leveraging your Cornell scholarship and recent Duke acceptance to get more money out of both of the schools.

Good luck with whatever you choose!

[PourMeTea]

Post removed.

[SteelPenguin]

Are you living in an Ithacan castle? I didn't even know it was possible to pay that much. For most PI/government jobs though, and if you don't want NYC, I'd probably recommend Duke as long as the CoA was relatively close.

[Lincoln]

There is so little separating those two schools in terms of employment outcomes that I don't think it's worth the hassle. Also $1,700!? Wtf dude? I paid $535 in 2013 for the nicest place I've ever lived in. A friend of mine lived next to the law school for free.

[tinagroan]

Not a castle, but it does have parking included so...basically a castle, yes. I chose it because it was cheaper than Collegetown Terrace, but then there were some hidden fees and it ended up being more than I would have liked.
At this point I think I'll wait to see if/what Duke offers in terms of scholarship and what sort of loans they have available. I'm looking around housing in Durham and it's way cheaper, but as someone else pointed out it might not be worth all the hassle to switch this late, especially since I might not get a lease until a few days into the school year and have to live out of my car.
Thanks to those of you who've responded/pm'd! I appreciate the feedback!
Tea, do you mind elaborating on why Duke is such a sure thing in your opinion? Thanks!

[Baby_Got_Feuerbach]

Duke.

You'll have the Triangle at your disposal.

[snagglepuss]

Peer schools are peer schools. I've yet to hear a convincing case for why either of these schools would be worth anywhere near $50,000+ more than the other.

Both are pretty strong schools in your field of interest International and Comparative Law. They both have a number of exchange programs, foreign institutes, international/comparative law classes, and joint degrees focused on this interest. Cornell has John J. Barceló III and Duke has Curtis A. Bradley. I don't think you can go wrong with either school on this point.

Duke has an edge since you don't want to work in NYC and they're less NYC-centric in their placement.
But what's that worth? Hopefully, Duke eliminates this question with a nice scholarship offer.

Also, wow at $1,700/month in rent. You can rent well for about a ≈third of that with a roommate.

[Hahalollawl]

I was accepted to Cornell regular decision and Duke off the WL and am going to be at Duke this fall. Duke's financial aid office was pretty quick in getting me my offer IIRC so you should get a chance to compare the two before you decide. I may be biased and my experience is not exactly the same as yours but on the chance that something is helpful...

First off, I think you got a better money offer from Cornell than I did. My LSAT is higher than yours but my GPA is lower, so maybe Cornell was looking for higher GPAs. For this reason, it might be a bit more difficult for you to choose Duke over Cornell than it was for me.

In my case, choosing Duke over Cornell was a pretty easy decision. To be honest, my experience with Cornell was pretty disappointing. I know i wasn't entitled to anything, but Cornell offered me very little money and based on the emails i received seemed to have no interest in negotiating with me unless I had a competing offer from a peer. At the time I didn't have one so I got no increase. This may be a bit of a tangent, but it vividly showed me how much of a cynical numbers game law school admissions/financial aid has become, at least at Cornell. As long as l you're not a threat to their yield, why should they care how much money you would have to pay to attend right?

Anyways, Duke swooped in and offered me significantly more money off of the waitlist without even asking to see my other offer (though considering how little I had from Cornell it wasn't like they had to offer me a lot to beat Cornell's offer), and in doing so won my respect and my attendance. A higher ranking school offering more money? Who would have thought lol.

However, your situation is different from mine. I don't know if Duke will be able or willing to beat the offer you have from Cornell at this point and I guess you may have some logistical issues to get hammered out this late. But it does seem interesting that Duke is the school you wanted and perhaps more importantly you do NOT seem to want NY. Anyways, maybe you can come back later this week when you find out about financial aid. That should allow you to make a better informed decision. Sorry if this seems like it turned into a bit of a rant. If you do choose Duke, hopefully I'll see you in the Fall!

[Lavitz]

Need FA offer first.

But for now, I'll just say that I don't think it's going to be easy to find someone to take over a $1700/month lease in Ithaca in August. I know people transferring out who've been trying to get rid of cheaper places for a month.

You don't want NYC? ENJOY DOOK.

Aren't you on the Cornell WL?

[Nomo]

Honestly, you sound like someone who should not attend law school at this time. may have "warmed up" to corporate law, but if its something you're trying to ditch in a few years then you better know what you're going to ditch it for and it better be something realistic (no international law). And when you ask whether Duke will give you a better shot at non-corporate law, what do you mean? It doesn't appear that you're trying to distinguish b/w corporate/transactional and litigation. I get the feeling you have no idea what you're jumping into or why. So I wouldn't jump. I would delay another year, learn more about the legal profession and consider going next year.

[CanadianWolf]

Duke is the better choice since you don't want NYC. Consider sitting out a year to retake the LSAT & to get better financial aid offers if Duke's offer is disappointing.

[infirob]

SPAM

[tinagroan]

Honestly, you sound like someone who should not attend law school at this time. may have "warmed up" to corporate law, but if its something you're trying to ditch in a few years then you better know what you're going to ditch it for and it better be something realistic (no international law). And when you ask whether Duke will give you a better shot at non-corporate law, what do you mean? It doesn't appear that you're trying to distinguish b/w corporate/transactional and litigation. I get the feeling you have no idea what you're jumping into or why. So I wouldn't jump. I would delay another year, learn more about the legal profession and consider going next year.

Sorry, should have been clearer in the initial post, but I was posting in a sort of panic. By non-corporate law I basically meant health law, communications law, IP, etc., rather than the corporate in-house council positions Cornell tends to push. That might be me using the wrong terminology, so I apologize for that. I've only worked in public interest (DA's office) so I'm honestly not sure how much I would enjoy corporate law at this point, but I am looking forward to exploring different aspects of it through my classes.

I was accepted to Cornell and Duke off the WL and am going to be at Duke this fall. Duke's financial aid office was pretty quick in getting me my offer IIRC so you should get a chance to compare the two before you decide. I may be biased and my experience is not exactly the same as yours but on the chance that something is helpful...

First off, I think you got a better money offer from Cornell than I did. My LSAT is higher than yours but my GPA is lower, so maybe Cornell was looking for higher GPAs. For this reason, it might be a bit more difficult for you to choose Duke over Cornell than it was for me.

In my case, choosing Duke over Cornell was a pretty easy decision. To be honest, my experience with Cornell was pretty disappointing. I know i wasn't entitled to anything, but Cornell offered me very little money and based on the emails i received seemed to have no interest in negotiating with me unless I had a competing offer from a peer. At the time I didn't have one so I got no increase. This may be a bit of a tangent, but it vividly showed me how much of a cynical numbers game law school admissions/financial aid has become, at least at Cornell. As long as l you're not a threat to their yield, why should they care how much money you would have to pay to attend right?

Anyways, Duke swooped in and offered me significantly more money off of the waitlist without even asking to see my other offer (though considering how little I had from Cornell it wasn't like they had to offer me a lot to beat Cornell's offer), and in doing so won my respect and my attendance. A higher ranking school offering more money? Who would have thought lol.

However, your situation is different from mine. I don't know if Duke will be able or willing to beat the offer you have from Cornell at this point and I guess you may have some logistical issues to get hammered out this late. But it does seem interesting that Duke is the school you wanted and perhaps more importantly you do NOT seem to want NY. Anyways, maybe you can come back later this week when you find out about financial aid. That should allow you to make a better informed decision. Sorry if this seems like it turned into a bit of a rant. If you do choose Duke, hopefully I'll see you in the Fall!

I thought the admissions office at Cornell just hated me! Glad to see you shared my experience with them. Thanks for this post; it gave me a lot to think about.

[cron1834]

I was accepted to Cornell and Duke off the WL and am going to be at Duke this fall. Duke's financial aid office was pretty quick in getting me my offer IIRC so you should get a chance to compare the two before you decide. I may be biased and my experience is not exactly the same as yours but on the chance that something is helpful...

First off, I think you got a better money offer from Cornell than I did. My LSAT is higher than yours but my GPA is lower, so maybe Cornell was looking for higher GPAs. For this reason, it might be a bit more difficult for you to choose Duke over Cornell than it was for me.

In my case, choosing Duke over Cornell was a pretty easy decision. To be honest, my experience with Cornell was pretty disappointing. I know i wasn't entitled to anything, but Cornell offered me very little money and based on the emails i received seemed to have no interest in negotiating with me unless I had a competing offer from a peer. At the time I didn't have one so I got no increase. This may be a bit of a tangent, but it vividly showed me how much of a cynical numbers game law school admissions/financial aid has become, at least at Cornell. As long as l you're not a threat to their yield, why should they care how much money you would have to pay to attend right?

Anyways, Duke swooped in and offered me significantly more money off of the waitlist without even asking to see my other offer (though considering how little I had from Cornell it wasn't like they had to offer me a lot to beat Cornell's offer), and in doing so won my respect and my attendance. A higher ranking school offering more money? Who would have thought lol.

However, your situation is different from mine. I don't know if Duke will be able or willing to beat the offer you have from Cornell at this point and I guess you may have some logistical issues to get hammered out this late. But it does seem interesting that Duke is the school you wanted and perhaps more importantly you do NOT seem to want NY. Anyways, maybe you can come back later this week when you find out about financial aid. That should allow you to make a better informed decision. Sorry if this seems like it turned into a bit of a rant. If you do choose Duke, hopefully I'll see you in the Fall!

Just lol at this. Respect? What? You got in off the waitlist and had no competing offers - what were you expecting from Cornell? The game is the same at every school, except perhaps hys. Yikes at your entitled attitude (from a WL no less...).

Anyway, OP, I agree Duke is probably better for you unless they completely stonewall.

[Lavitz]

Sorry, should have been clearer in the initial post, but I was posting in a sort of panic. By non-corporate law I basically meant health law, communications law, IP, etc., rather than the corporate in-house council positions Cornell tends to push. That might be me using the wrong terminology, so I apologize for that. I've only worked in public interest (DA's office) so I'm honestly not sure how much I would enjoy corporate law at this point, but I am looking forward to exploring different aspects of it through my classes.

Huh? In-house counsel jobs with corporations are classified under business, and make up a negligible percentage of each school's graduating class. Duke: 3.7%, Cornell: 3.1%.

The type of biglaw jobs you'd get from both schools are exactly the same. The only difference is where the jobs are. Do you want to work in the South? Then Duke may open up a new market for you. Do you want to work in PA or basically anywhere in the Northeast? Then Duke has no discernible advantage over Cornell. If you want to work in PA, Cornell is within driving distance. I have no idea where these 0Ls are getting the idea that Duke is hands-down better for every conceivable place in the country besides NY. And as far as other types of jobs go, Yea All Right already pointed out that the difference in PI and Gov outcomes is negligible.

But you have to decide what you want to do. You're not getting a firm that does only IP unless you have a technical degree. Your first year classes are torts, contracts, crimlaw, civpro, and property. They're not going to help you decide if you like practicing "corporate law." Nothing will resemble actual transactional work. There might be a panel or two that describes what a deal is like, but that's about it.

I thought the admissions office at Cornell just hated me! Glad to see you shared my experience with them. Thanks for this post; it gave me a lot to think about.

What is there to think about? How you shouldn't attend Cornell because the evil admissions office slighted you by giving you only $20,000 a year? Your interactions with the admissions office should have almost zero bearing on your decision. Columbia has a shitty admissions office too, IMO. Doesn't affect their employment numbers. Besides, your two situations are completely different because you actually got an offer from Cornell, and you don't even know Duke's offer yet. And you still have the logistical issues to sort out. The only useful part of that post was where the poster said to come back with an FA offer because you need to compare costs.

But hey, if Duke offers you some cash, and you can work out the logistics, then go ahead and decide on personal preference.

[bombaysippin]

lavitz droppin that knowledge bomb right now

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Dude neither school is worth this crazy amount of money.

[tinagroan]

lavitz droppin that knowledge bomb right now

One of the reasons I might stick with Cornell is that if I leave there's no chance lavitz can be my mentor. That's like my dream scenario.

[Lavitz]

lavitz droppin that knowledge bomb right now

One of the reasons I might stick with Cornell is that if I leave there's no chance lavitz can be my mentor. That's like my dream scenario.

I already solicited my mentees in the c/o 2017 thread. You can still hit me with questions, but I'm going to be super busy this semester and cannot guarantee the quality of my answers.