WUSTL vs Vanderbilt (Must decide by tomorrow) Forum

[njdevils2626]

After having committed to attending WUSTL this fall, I was accepted off the waitlist at Vanderbilt yesterday and am now trying to figure out what my best options may be. I am a Canadian student and so, because of that, Vanderbilt's much higher Biglaw placement numbers are of even higher importance. A retake wouldn't help me dramatically and I am comfortable with my decision to attend WUSTL this fall, but am just trying to see if Vanderbilt would make more sense for me, so essentially I am deciding between these two options:

-The schools you are considering: WUSTL vs. Vanderbilt

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.

WUSTL has offered me a scholarship of $120,000 and total COA for myself would be $0 thanks to generous parental contributions. While this is incredibly fortunate, I obviously would like to limit the financial burden placed on them.

Vanderbilt has offered me an initial scholarship offer of $65,000. I will be sending an email to attempt to increase that amount later today, but have heard that is an unlikely outcome. Preparing for the absolute worst case scenario, I assume equivalent parental contributions at both schools, which would leave total debt at repayment for Vanderbilt at a maximum of $68,796 per the calculator. This would be the worst-case scenario. I guess you'd have to include the cost of leaving behind the lease I just signed in St Louis as well.

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

At WUSTL, entirely from scholarships and family.

At Vanderbilt, from scholarships and family contributions along with potentially some loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

As a Canadian student, I don't have very many ties to the US aside from familial ties, such as cousins or grandparents living in the US. I would be interested in New York, Boston, Chicago, and other metropolitan markets. Doesn't necessarily need to be northeast US, I would be comfortable working in the South but don't really know what markets aside from Texas are prominent for Biglaw.

-Your general career goals

I have extensive work experience dealing in arbitration and mediation processes through my work as a Bankruptcy Technician and would like to explore that in more detail, but I think I am more likely to end up wanting to do corporate work in either M&A or PE.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers

2.9 and 172. GPA comes with extenuating circumstances, having graduated in three years, spending my first in Neuroscience and hating it before switching to Political Science only to have a heart attack right before finals second year.

-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Twice. (168, 172)

Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated

[jingosaur]

Your goals will be tough to achieve out of either of these schools. What was your status with UVA and Northwestern this cycle? What type of work can you do if you don't go this year? A reapply might be in order.

If you're definitely going to go to one of these schools, I would say WUSTL since you'll have no debt coming out which will give you a lot of flexibility career-wise and give you an advantage over a lot of other students coming out of law school.

Also, would you need a firm to sponsor you in the US?

[DoveBodyWash]

how will your Canadian citizenship influence your job search? Will firms have to sponsor you?

Can you give us a range of the expected total debt from Vanderbilt? Assume that they don't increase your scholarship and assume maximum family contribution that you're comfortable with

[Fiero85]

Tough call

It's hard to say how much better Vandy places in "New York, Boston, Chicago" than WUSTL specifically. WUSTL especally is regional and being from way out of the area won't help. I think the South (including TX) will be a stretch as a Canadian, so I'm hesitant to include that as a factor at all. You'd have to just have dominant grades that would get you to NYC anyway, I think. That's kind of a narrow topic that I can't claim to know well. Dixie bros chime in if you know what's up for the OP's southern chances from either school, but I think they are negligable.

I'll call the South a wash (not gonna happen from either). Vandy still gives you about 15% better chance at NYC and other big eastern metros, maybe a lil less gap for Chicago. But Chicago is a bloodbath supposedly so you prob would have needed to go to Northwestern for that.

Being a Canadian with generous parents makes the 15% Biglaw placement much more intriguing than it would be for the average Joe American using loans. I think if they give you a material bump (~10k), you gotta do it and not look back. As it stands it is a very tough call, but I would go to Vandy for the 60k difference in your context. At a minimum try to get them to cover your getting-out-of-the-lease expenses and what not for last minute moving.

Full Disclosure: I was faced with Vandy for 45k more in tution than WUSTL and didn't even entertain the idea. Going to WUSTL. So this is a close one. I'm from STL so it I had ties and personal reasons weighing in, and better COL reduction options at WUSTL. You having no legit ties to the midwest or south makes this tip towards NYC, which Vandy places better in.

Good luck!

P.S. agreed with above that a reapply to Cornell, Northwestern, UVA, etc would be the best way to get to your goals

[njdevils2626]

Your goals will be tough to achieve out of either of these schools. What was your status with UVA and Northwestern this cycle? What type of work can you do if you don't go this year? A reapply might be in order.

If you're definitely going to go to one of these schools, I would say WUSTL since you'll have no debt coming out which will give you a lot of flexibility career-wise and give you an advantage over a lot of other students coming out of law school.

Also, would you need a firm to sponsor you in the US?

I didn't apply to UVA and was rejected from Northwestern this past cycle. I'm not quite sure what work I could do in the interim if I backed out on this year, but I currently work for a top 5 accounting services firm in Canada and would likely stay on here in some capacity. I would say, however, that I don't think a re-apply would net me much better than WUSTL for free so, as of now, I still plan on going this year. As a Canadian citizen, my I-20 will allow me to work for the 6 months after graduation without any extension or sponsorship but, in order to remain in the US after that, a US firm would have to sponsor me. This is at least how I understand it and what I was led to believe, if I am wrong someone please feel free to correct me.

Can you give us a range of the expected total debt from Vanderbilt? Assume that they don't increase your scholarship and assume maximum family contribution that you're comfortable with

Assuming scholarship remains the same at Vanderbilt, I think my parents would prefer me to go to WUSTL. The upper limit of the debt at repayment would be the aforementioned $68,796 while the lower limit would likely be ~23,000. I haven't spoken to my parents abuot this too seriously yet, so I'm not sure how much they would be willing to increase their contribution, but the money is there to make Vanderbilt free as well.

[rahulg91]

68k total COA for Vandy doesn't sound like a bad outcome. But your LSAT looks like you might get some NU/GULC/Cornell love if you reapply (plus more WE makes you more desirable for NU). Plus that way you get a chance at a third retake!

[ManoftheHour]

Even with your GPA, I'm really surprised NU didn't offer you admission with that LSAT. There have been quite a few splitters that got off their WL with similar numbers. Granted, I think their GPAs were slightly higher (but their LSATs were slightly lower).

[ManoftheHour]

68k total COA for Vandy doesn't sound like a bad outcome. But your LSAT looks like you might get some NU/GULC/Cornell love if you reapply (plus more WE makes you more desirable for NU). Plus that way you get a chance at a third retake!

I don't really think a retake would help him that much. It's not his LSAT that's holding him back, it's the 2.9. His 172 is already higher than the 75th percentile for all of those mentioned schools.

Agreed that reapplying could be a good option. OP, did you apply late this cycle? I'm surprised that you didn't get more love from the lower T-14s.

[redsoxfan1989]

The bottom line is that your best bet for staying in the states is targeting New York firms. If you are completely committed to going to school this year, I would choose Vandy for the slight boost there. I think when you are so dependent on getting biglaw, you need to be willing to pay for it.

Having worked as support staff in a large Boston firm, I don't know of any attorneys who attended either Vandy or WUSTL law. Chances are if there are any, they have strong ties to Boston (which you don't have). I would advise you not to think of Boston as a back up for New York -- my friends who have graduated out of state t14 law schools have advised me quite the opposite. And Boston is only slightly more ties sensitive than big markets in the south (such as Atlanta, which is also apparently very prestige/grades sensitive too). I have no clue about your chances at Chicago, without ties, from an out of state school, but wouldn't wager that they are great.

So either way, you are looking at going to a regional school hoping for NYC biglaw. I can't say I would recommend either. I think the correct answer here is reapply and retake. With applications continuing to drop, you may have a better chance at NU or GULC next cycle even if your score doesn't increase. Try to get a job at a financial firm in one of the US cities you would like to practice while you prepare.

[rahulg91]

68k total COA for Vandy doesn't sound like a bad outcome. But your LSAT looks like you might get some NU/GULC/Cornell love if you reapply (plus more WE makes you more desirable for NU). Plus that way you get a chance at a third retake!

I don't really think a retake would help him that much. It's not his LSAT that's holding him back, it's the 2.9. His 172 is already higher than the 75th percentile for all of those mentioned schools.

Agreed that reapplying could be a good option. OP, did you apply late this cycle? I'm surprised that you didn't get more love from the lower T-14s.

The lower T14s were a total mystery to me this cycle (at least with splitters). Agree on the retake, but I still think a 174+ could get MVP even with a 2.9, though at that GPA CCN is probably out?

[Nomo]

I'm not sure if either is great for your goals. But Vanderbilt is the better option of the two.

Retaking isn't worthwhile, but sitting out and trying again in an easier application cycle could be helpful. I don't know.

[DoveBodyWash]

1. NYC is the best market you have a shot at out of WUSTL without ties to a secondary, including Boston. You'll need to be top 20% or better to have a sustainable number of screeners from WUSTL. This is based on my own experience and those of my friends, 20% just seemed to be like the line between "fucked" and "okay" I know one person who was outside the 20% who is cleaning up with screeners, but she seems like the exception. I imagine u need to do well at Vanderbilt as well.

2. The debt thing is pretty personal. I would be okay borrowing up to 50k total for T20, but that's an arbitrary line that I just drew for myself just now. In reality I could probably rationalize up to 60k or something. If you get BigLaw then paying 50-60k off will be an inconvenience but by no means impossible. I think a certain amount of debt is fine as an investment in your career.

3. Vanderbilt's placement is only marginally better than WUSTL for BigLaw and WUSTL places a non-negligible number of people into well-paying firms that don't make the "BigLaw" cut off in terms of labeling. I'm not sure if Vanderbilt has a similar placement cohort as well, I imagine they do since they're also in a region that has smaller firms that still pay well. The problem is that almost all of those firms are off the table for you since they tend to hire students with ties to their region.

4. Assuming you opt to attend this year instead of re-applying, then the real issue is "What happens if i strike out completely?" Most of my friends answer this with "I can do anything else." But in reality i'm not sure how much "anything else" is on the table to a J.D. who spent 3 years off the job market and couldn't secure substantive legal employment. I imagine you could gun hard for small firm or PI but the hiring for those employers aren't especially robust. The more likely option would be to just leave the field altogether or something. No debt from WUSTL would make that easier. And 50-60k debt from Vanderbilt would make it harder, but not impossible.

5. Try to seek out some WUSTL and Vandy 2L's and look at their OCI line-ups. It fluctuates slightly year to year but not significantly. Also figure out how the screener system works at Vanderbilt, WUSTL is 100% lottery.


ETA: Actually i could probably rationalize up to sticker for T20 if that was my only option so that observation should be struck as useless.

[redsoxfan1989]

I imagine you could gun hard for small firm or PI but the hiring for those employers aren't especially robust.

This isn't really an option for OP because he would need to be sponsored for a visa by said small firm or PI organization which seems unlikely. He is banking on biglaw.

OP, would you be able to article in Canada with either Vandy or WUSTL degree? If you end up striking out and want to use your law degree, you're probably heading back north.

[DoveBodyWash]

I imagine you could gun hard for small firm or PI but the hiring for those employers aren't especially robust.

This isn't really an option for OP because he would need to be sponsored for a visa by said small firm or PI organization which seems unlikely. He is banking on biglaw.

OP, would you be able to article in Canada with either Vandy or WUSTL degree? If you end up striking out and want to use your law degree, you're probably heading back north.

ahh snap i forgot about that, thanks for catching

[blueberrycrumble]

I imagine you could gun hard for small firm or PI but the hiring for those employers aren't especially robust.

This isn't really an option for OP because he would need to be sponsored for a visa by said small firm or PI organization which seems unlikely. He is banking on biglaw.

OP, would you be able to article in Canada with either Vandy or WUSTL degree? If you end up striking out and want to use your law degree, you're probably heading back north.

Technically you can take a US law degree back to Canada and practice... but in practicality, this is very difficult without say, being the top of your class or family connections. In Canada, you have to article (generally with a mid-to-large sized firm, since others can't afford an articling student), which will be difficult to find given there are plenty of Canadian law students looking to article too, and you're not from HYS. Also, there's a few extra exams to study for and pass before even being allowed to article. Generally, the consensus on lawstudents.ca (Canadian TLS equivalent) is if you go to a US law school, 99% of the time, you should stay in the US.

[redsoxfan1989]

Technically you can take a US law degree back to Canada and practice... but in practicality, this is very difficult without say, being the top of your class or family connections. In Canada, you have to article (generally with a mid-to-large sized firm, since others can't afford an articling student), which will be difficult to find given there are plenty of Canadian law students looking to article too, and you're not from HYS. Also, there's a few extra exams to study for and pass before even being allowed to article. Generally, the consensus on lawstudents.ca (Canadian TLS equivalent) is if you go to a US law school, 99% of the time, you should stay in the US.

So if I have this right, OP needs biglaw in the US or Canada and his options are schools with 36% and 29% placement rates in firms of 100+ attorneys? That sounds like a dangerous bet to take, even if there is no debt involved. That's three years lost salary at your current employer for something far short of a sure thing.

[BigZuck]

I don't know what a bankruptcy technician is but I think it's probably best to stick with that than to go to law school in this situation. I wouldn't feel comfortable attending WUSTL without ties to and strong desire to work somewhere in the Midwest or Vandy without ties to and strong desire to work someplace in the south. No doubt these are good schools and it's possible to get employment outside of their home market but that would be an uphill battle. Especially if you're Canadian, don't have ties to the markets you would be targeting, and big law is your only option.

I wouldn't do it, too great of a chance of backfiring and wasting 3 years and possibly some cash, IMO.

[jk148706]

$68,000 COA at Vandy seems very reasonable to me. But then again, idk if it will get you where you want to go in your career.

ETA: $0 at WUSTL also seems very reasonable

[njdevils2626]

1. NYC is the best market you have a shot at out of WUSTL without ties to a secondary, including Boston. You'll need to be top 20% or better to have a sustainable number of screeners from WUSTL. This is based on my own experience and those of my friends, 20% just seemed to be like the line between "fucked" and "okay" I know one person who was outside the 20% who is cleaning up with screeners, but she seems like the exception. I imagine u need to do well at Vanderbilt as well.

2. The debt thing is pretty personal. I would be okay borrowing up to 50k total for T20, but that's an arbitrary line that I just drew for myself just now. In reality I could probably rationalize up to 60k or something. If you get BigLaw then paying 50-60k off will be an inconvenience but by no means impossible. I think a certain amount of debt is fine as an investment in your career.

3. Vanderbilt's placement is only marginally better than WUSTL for BigLaw and WUSTL places a non-negligible number of people into well-paying firms that don't make the "BigLaw" cut off in terms of labeling. I'm not sure if Vanderbilt has a similar placement cohort as well, I imagine they do since they're also in a region that has smaller firms that still pay well. The problem is that almost all of those firms are off the table for you since they tend to hire students with ties to their region.

4. Assuming you opt to attend this year instead of re-applying, then the real issue is "What happens if i strike out completely?" Most of my friends answer this with "I can do anything else." But in reality i'm not sure how much "anything else" is on the table to a J.D. who spent 3 years off the job market and couldn't secure substantive legal employment. I imagine you could gun hard for small firm or PI but the hiring for those employers aren't especially robust. The more likely option would be to just leave the field altogether or something. No debt from WUSTL would make that easier. And 50-60k debt from Vanderbilt would make it harder, but not impossible.

5. Try to seek out some WUSTL and Vandy 2L's and look at their OCI line-ups. It fluctuates slightly year to year but not significantly. Also figure out how the screener system works at Vanderbilt, WUSTL is 100% lottery.


ETA: Actually i could probably rationalize up to sticker for T20 if that was my only option so that observation should be struck as useless.

Thanks everyone for the responses so far, definitely taking it all into account. I think that I will be deciding to attend this year at one of these schools because I am comfortable with trying for WUSTL at no debt. I was rejected from my reach schools in the T14 such as Northwestern and don't think re-applying will give me anything far and away better than free WUSTL. The question now is at what cost it starts to make sense to choose Vanderbilt over free WUSTL. Should I strike out and find nothing, it would be possible but, as another commenter said, likely difficult to obtain an articling position from WUSTL or Vandy if I didn't get the grades to be competitive for BigLaw. I do have a number of connections in law in Canada who could potentially make that option more available, but I wouldn't say I'm counting on that as a backup plan. If I can't find gainful employment as a lawyer in the US, my next most likely route would probably be to return to Canada and perhaps become a trustee. My accounting firm has wanted me to go that route for a while, but I have always wanted to work in the US and I think my future is there, so I really do want to give this a real shot, just hoping to increase my chances as much as possible and open as many doors as I can

[jk148706]

wut did u choose

[03152016]

not saying that you ought to go to ls
but if you were deadset on going and had these two options
wustl with zero debt is imo the better option

i'm not saying vandy for $68k is bad or anything
the better employment scores and bl+fc numbers are meaningful

but graduating with no debt from a strong regional like wustl, that's a good outcome
if you get biglaw, would you rather save/enjoy your money or throw thousands of it every month at loans
if you land in a smaller firm, how much better off will you be without more than a year's salary of debt hanging over your head
if you end up unemployed, won't you be glad you didn't have $68k accruing interest, creditors calling you day and night and filling your mailbox with late notices

[jk148706]

not saying that you ought to go to ls
but if you were deadset on going and had these two options
wustl with zero debt is imo the better option

i'm not saying vandy for $68k is bad or anything
the better employment scores and bl+fc numbers are meaningful

but graduating with no debt from a strong regional like wustl, that's a good outcome
if you get biglaw, would you rather save/enjoy your money or throw thousands of it every month at loans
if you land in a smaller firm, how much better off will you be without more than a year's salary of debt hanging over your head
if you end up unemployed, won't you be glad you didn't have $68k accruing interest, creditors calling you day and night and filling your mailbox with late notices

Yeah, I'm just imagining no debt. It would be amazing.

[ManoftheHour]

not saying that you ought to go to ls
but if you were deadset on going and had these two options
wustl with zero debt is imo the better option

i'm not saying vandy for $68k is bad or anything
the better employment scores and bl+fc numbers are meaningful

but graduating with no debt from a strong regional like wustl, that's a good outcome
if you get biglaw, would you rather save/enjoy your money or throw thousands of it every month at loans
if you land in a smaller firm, how much better off will you be without more than a year's salary of debt hanging over your head
if you end up unemployed, won't you be glad you didn't have $68k accruing interest, creditors calling you day and night and filling your mailbox with late notices

I'm with Brut with this one. Worst case scenario: You monumentally fuck up. Oh well. Sucks that you spent 3 years not making money, but at least you have a degree and no debt. Perhaps use it to lateral into something like human resources or whatever. You'd still be young and you can still do other stuff and start a new career without worrying about debt.

[Nomo]

Some people have mentioned that a non-negligible number of WUSTL and VANDY students go to mid-size or local biglaw type firms. These are firms with over 100 attorneys, but they aren't a possibility for OP because he isn't getting a job in a secondary market without ties. And he has no ties. Big and midsize firms in the south, midwest, mid atlantic, etc. are not on the table.

OP should really be considering going to law school in Canada. Or on the other hand trying to get a job in the US in the field he is already working in and getting on the path to citizenship before attending a US law school.

[cron1834]

NYC Biglaw is the best bet for your goals, and lower T14 is probably the best bet for NYC Biglaw. I would reapply and hope that Cornell/NU/GULC need that LSAT next year (apps should be down again).