UVA ($$$) vs Stanford ($$) Forum

[truckstop]

I'm back again with what I think is a completely different situation. Last time, I only needed support in my decision, but this time I actually believe I have a very difficult choice. Feel free to tell me if you disagree, as I feel stuck and am actually looking for opinions (although there's no need to be rude in doing so).

Schools and COA:
UVA - Dillard - ~20,500/year (I would try to only take out the Stafford loans), the spreadsheet suggests ~$75,000 at repayment

Stanford - $35,000 in need-based aid/year plus the max Perkins loan (lower interest rate) - ~45,000/50,000 per year, the spreadsheet suggests ~$150,000 at repayment (had a hard time adjusting for the loans that would be Perkins instead of GradPLUS)

I will be financing school through loans.

I've been living in DC for the past few years and I think I'd like to come back here after school. I have zero interest in BigLaw and would probably take advantage of LRAP (although I know a lot of people change their minds and end up doing it for a couple years). I am currently thinking about a few different types of positions at the DOJ or the DA's office, but I'm not 100% set on anything yet.

Stanford was my dream school from the start (I can list reasons for people if they really want to know, but some are personal) and I wasn't expecting to get in. Then I wasn't expecting any financial aid based on my offers from other schools. Now I find myself with a decision that I am having a very tough time with. I'm pretty debt-averse, but I know that I'm going to end up with a lot no matter what (but not nearly as much as I could have) and I also know that Stanford's option is pretty great for just need-based aid. I currently think I could be happy at both schools and that I could pay off my loans without feeling like I'm drowning (I hope). I think my brain is still leaning UVA but my heart is leaning Stanford.

Help me out one more time, please? Thanks in advance!

[daleearnhardt123]

UVA is the best non-HYS for DC. At~75k difference I think this is very close but lean UVA. Also, COA is overestimated for schools like UVA. You're doing something very wrong if you spend 20k a year there in living expenses.

[ymmv]

Congratulations! You've won LS admissions.
I know SLS is hard to turn down, but given your geographic and career interests I would lean toward UVA.

[TFALAWL]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

[TFALAWL]

feel free to PM me

[daleearnhardt123]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

1. As a 1L you need to calm the fuck down. It's a stressful time for students everywhere.
2. Bottom of SLS doesn't just waltz into DC. Its no secret that DC is competitive.
3. In pure #s (not % of class) UVA is regularly second to H in summers in DC
4. If you regret going to UVA everyday, god help you. It's the most enjoyable experience of any T10 school.

[ymmv]

As a UVA student going through the OGI process, I can't emphasize enough how SLS is the better option. To have a solid chance at DC from UVA, you need to be top 1/4 - and make no mistake, UVA is competitive as hell. I'm top 1/3 and CSO still told me I can't rely on OGI.

75k difference is a lot of money - but the better job security is worth it times a million. Plus, SLS will also help you when you decide to leave biglaw (I can't state specifically how, but my gut tells me there are intangibles)

FWIW, not a day goes by where I don't regret going to UVA

First off, you clearly didn't read OP. He has zero interest in biglaw or OGI. Secondly, the bolded above is idiotic. The extent to which SLS is going to better help OP procure DC DOJ/DA employment than UVA is largely unknown, and certainly doesn't merit the hyperbole of being "worth it times a million." In fact, given how heavily DA employment relies on networking/hustling/alumni connections, there's probably an argument to be made that UVA better positions OP for such a career in the DC/VA area than does SLS, or at least does so to a comparable level.

At the very least $75k is a hell of a lot easier to pay off than $150k if OP ends up in a non-forgiveness/LRAP eligible position.

[TFALAWL]

1. Fair enough, that everyone is stressed right now, and I am overreacting
2. However, even if he says he has no interest in BigLaw - I've seen countless students change their minds on this, and it's important to keep it on the table.
3. The beauty of law school is being able to change your mind about what you want to do. SLS = more options. While we can't quantify DOJ hiring, I think common sense lends itself to the conclusion that SLS is better.
4. When I say I regret UVA - it's not the environment - I love the folks; it's the fact our OGI handbook says "if you're not top 1/4 + W/E + great interviewer, don't count on OGI - this lends itself to a stressful environment. SLS would be completely stress free.

[ymmv]

The beauty of law school is being able to change your mind about what you want to do.

[TFALAWL]

Really? So you've met no one who was committed to public interest, then changed their mind to biglaw or vice versa? 90% of people who enter of law school have no clue with any amount of precision what they want to do. So yes, within the legal field, SLS would allow you to change your mind more easily

[daleearnhardt123]

2/3 of the class of 13 got fed clerkships or big law. A non-negligible % opted out of those paths by choice. The handbooks remarks on top 1/4 are meant to make you take this SERIOUSLY. The most frustrating thing for OCS has got to be top 1/4 ppl who come in complaining at the end of OGI because they expected skadden NY or something to just fall into their lap. You have to work for it. That said, calm down dude. Take it seriously and you'll be fine.

[pertristis]

Yours is an enviable position. Personally, I'd choose Stanford, but neither is a bad option.

Part of it comes down to how risk- and debt-averse you are. You seem comfortable with the debt load at either. I can't speak to DOJ/BigGov positions, but I imagine that they look the same as biglaw jobs: Basically nothing is out of reach at either school, but you probably have to do better at UVA than at Stanford for consideration for different position. (In terms of Skadden NY, which came up earlier in this thread, you might have to be top 25% at UVA to be considered, while you you could be at median at Stanford and still get considered.) Mr. Earnhardt is right that job outcomes are great at UVA. If you add in government and state-court clerkships to his figures, they cover a full 80% of the class of 2013. Note, though, that one may argue that UVA's placement into DC might be more self-selection than anything.

Part of it comes down to location. Personally, I love Charlottesville, as do most of my former classmates. But personally, all other things being equal, I'd have rather spent three years in the Bay than in Charlottesville.

Part of it comes to to clerkships, if you want to do one. Both Stanford and UVA do well in placing graduates into clerkships, but Stanford—at least for those who clerk directly after school, does better. For federal clerkships in the class of 2013, Stanford placed just shy of 1/3 of its class into federal clerkships, while placed 13% of its graduates into federal clerkships. Also, your political and jurisprudential views affect this. When it comes to clerkships, UVA tends to outperform its ranking partly by feeding its graduates into more conservative clerkships. The clerkship office and professors tend to have more connections with conservative judges. That's not to say that liberals can't get clerkships with liberal (or, for that matter, conservative) judges, but looking at the clerkship spreadsheet of where people go, more conservative judges tend to predominate.

Part of it comes down to how much you think you'd like being at UVA. As Mr. Earnhardt noted, people tend to love UVA. As Mr./Ms. TFALAWL noted, some people don't. I happen to be in the latter camp, but I didn't realize that would be the case until after I already got here. I recognize, however, that I'm in the minority. You might well love it.

[Sls17]

I am a 0L who recently chose a similar financial aid package at Stanford over the UVA Dillard and some other good options.

Though I am also thinking of working in DC, I value the geographic flexibility of a Stanford degree. I'm also looking at prestigious/national PI work, where Stanford will give me an edge. The financial aid and Perkins loans made Stanford much more financially viable than Harvard (my top choice), though of course it was a compromise position to take Stanford aid between Harvard and the Dillard.

A lot of it also came down to visits for me, though I know common TLS wisdom says this shouldn't be a factor. I did not feel a sense of PI support or community at UVA and I think I would have been pretty miserable in Charlottesville.

As I said, I'm a 0L, so I don't know if this is helpful, but feel free to PM me if it is. I feel confident that I made the right choice.

[anon sequitur]

UVA 3L on partial scholarship (smaller than yours), no interest in biglaw, was hoping for public interest jobs from day one. If I had had the chance to go to Stanford, knowing what I know now, I would have taken it at full price. I'll be honest and say I'm not really sure how much better/worse Stanford would be for DC-area employment. My gut tells me better, but I don't really know. But so many other reasons make it worth choosing over UVA even with $$. If you're interested in being a DA, or just any non-DC biggov type work, I don't think it's really a close call. Are you familiar with PSLF/PAYE/IBR and all that? You're not going to be crippled by debt at either school, you'll get a PI job; unless you're just terrible at law school and stiff as hell.

UVA probably doesn't shut too many doors to you, but Stanford will open them wider. I've really enjoyed being at UVA, but the cool public interest employers are just not hunting for UVA grads. If I was looking to be a big city DA/prestigious clerk/AUSA, I'd much rather rely on Stanford's network of influence. They (along with Berkeley) really dominate California, which is a gigantic market. UVA dominates Virginia, and does well in DC/NY.

As for the issues of community, PI at UVA isn't really the focus for very many people. The vast majority of students are hoping to get a biglaw job (at least for "a few years"), my sense is that HYS + Berkeley and NYU have a much better support system and alumni network for PI.

[brazleton]

.

[20170322]

Why not Mordecai?

Could you PM me numbers?

[BruceWayne]

UVA grad who had somewhat similar interests as you going into law school: Stanford and it's not even close.


Those jobs are just absurdly competitive and the truth is that they are only really impressed with three law schools and Stanford is one of them. I remember having a couple people from the DOJ come to put on presentations where they said they try to limit their hiring to law review at Harvard and Stanford but sometimes will hire "top of class + law review at schools like Columbia and UVA" (keep in mind this was said DIRECTLY to us--a room full of UVA law students--elitism at it's finest). Honestly when I heard that kind of talk/mentality it turned me off but that's irrelevant for your purposes...That being said a lot of these types of employers actually hire from all over the rankings spectrum. But the people they hire are almost universally fed clerks, law review, top of class etc.

Bottom line: if you want a realistic shot at those types of jobs going into law school 75K is a fair additional amount to pay. Not to mention the massive jump in biglaw security if that ever does become an interest (i.e. at Stanford you'll get it, whereas at UVA it's 50/50).

Also I believe that SLS LRAP is significantly better than UVA's as well.

[Sls17]

Also I believe that SLS LRAP is significantly better than UVA's as well.

I should have mentioned above that this was also a big factor for me. Stanford's LRAP is institutionally-funded, not dependent on the government's forgiveness program. It also allows you to reenter the program at any time, so you don't have to chain yourself to ten consecutive years of PI work if you decide to pursue another opportunity for any length of time.

[igo2northwestern]

UVA grad who had somewhat similar interests as you going into law school: Stanford and it's not even close.


Those jobs are just absurdly competitive and the truth is that they are only really impressed with three law schools and Stanford is one of them. I remember having a couple people from the DOJ come to put on presentations where they said they try to limit their hiring to law review at Harvard and Stanford but sometimes will hire "top of class + law review at schools like Columbia and UVA". Honestly when I heard that kind of talk/mentality it turned me off but that's irrelevant for your purposes...That being said a lot of these types of employers actually hire from all over the rankings spectrum. But they people they hire are almost universally fed clerks, law review, top of class etc.

Bottom line: if you want a realistic shot at those types of jobs going into law school 75K is a fair additional amount to pay. Not to mention the massive jump in biglaw security if that ever does become an interest (i.e. at Stanford you'll get it, whereas at UVA it's 50/50).

Also I believe that SLS LRAP is significantly better than UVA's as well.

This. Have people gone completely insane? Maybe if the OP didn't have any need-based aid from Stanford we could seriously debate this. But only a 75k difference and he prob wants LRAP and the DOJ? This isn't even a question. Stanford hands down. Fuck UVA.

I agree. I am pretty surprised that there are so many votes for UVA. It's a 75k difference. People decide between t6 and t14 with a 60k diff, calling it a wash. For OP's Doj interest, this can't possibly be a close question. UVA is a great school, but OP you'll be among like 180? Students at SLS, one of the most portable schools in the country (with need based aid and an excellent LRAP for PI work!). I seriously cannot believe that people view this as a close call.

[BruceWayne]

Also I believe that SLS LRAP is significantly better than UVA's as well.

I should have mentioned above that this was also a big factor for me. Stanford's LRAP is institutionally-funded, not dependent on the government's forgiveness program. It also allows you to reenter the program at any time, so you don't have to chain yourself to ten consecutive years of PI work if you decide to pursue another opportunity for any length of time.

Jesus that alone is worth going to Stanford for. That's insane and far better than UVA's.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

People strike out at Stanford (not a large % but probably 5% each year)

$150,000k is a lot of debt if you decide you don't want to practice law after a few years or are laid off

UVA is a top school and you can't get better than the Dillard

No matter what you will not have a debt noose around your neck

=

UVA

[whereskyle]

If you want a pie in the sky job, you had better go to a pie in the sky school.

[transferror]

People strike out at Stanford (not a large % but probably 5% each year)

Since when did the risk of striking out at HYS become an argument for something?

[jbagelboy]

I'm usually affiliated with the other camp, but I'd go to Stanford with these options. You can dip down to 4 or 5H there (medianish) and DC big law is still realistic. If you actually commit to public interest (rare, but I guess it does happen), LRAP will salvage the $75K debt difference and you're a more competitive candidate. Conversely, while UVA does pretty well in DC as other UVA students have testified you'd still need top 1/3 or so (like most T14's).

The quarter system at Stanford makes it a lot of work, and it's no safe haven from 1L stress or grade anxiety, but it will make your decisions easier and make you a more desirable candidate for the kind of work you want to do.

I wouldn't extend this argument too far. If this was sticker at SLS to Dillard, Dillard all the way. But here the cards are stacked for SLS.

[igo2northwestern]

People strike out at Stanford (not a large % but probably 5% each year)

Since when did the risk of striking out at HYS become an argument for something?

This is one of the few cases where reported percentages overstate actual unemployment. LSN tells us that 4% are unemployed out of SLS, or 8 grads.

Of those 8 grads, only 3 are still seeking employment, which is probably the more accurate measure. Of the remaining 5 "unemployed", 3 are FT in a grad program (phd?), 1 had a deferred start date (which might arise from a legit personal reason), and 1 was unknown. So really we're talking about 1.5-2% of students who really couldn't get a job; and I wouldn't judge SLS for that (or the quoted 5% stat).

SLS and it's not even close, OP. Even a lot of UVa grads view this as a clear-cut decision.