Vandy ($$) vs. Penn ($$) Forum

[wlee1220]

-The schools you are considering: Vanderbilt and Penn
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. Vandy = 150,000; Penn = 120,000 (numbers include savings/family contributions and interest)
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings : Mostly through loans, a little through savings and family.
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any) : From Philly area, have significant ties to Atlanta and want to return after graduation.
-Your general career goals: Mainly prestigious PI, but not totally excluding biglaw
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 160/3.4
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 3 times

Other Information:
Ordinarily, I would think that Penn is the obvious choice. The only reason why I'm still considering Vanderbilt is because they have the joint-degree program that I want to pursue that Penn doesn't have, and I would be able to get the second degree for free (M.Div.). Also, I'm slightly concerned that it may be very hard to get back to Atlanta from Penn since most of the students are NYC bound.

[BigZuck]

Is this thread real life?

Anyway, Penn

[igo2northwestern]

What is your motivation for pursuing that second degree? I'm skeptical that it'll translate to any benefit as far as your goals are concerned. Re: getting back to Atlanta, Penn should give you as good if not better opportunities. The NY geographic focus is a self-selection phenomenon for the most part; students who want to return to their home states typically do so without significant issues.

[WheatThins]

Re: getting back to Atlanta, Penn should give you as good if not better opportunities.

Do you have a basis for this knowledge? Because it is simply wrong.

[igo2northwestern]

Re: getting back to Atlanta, Penn should give you as good if not better opportunities.

Do you have a basis for this knowledge? Because it is simply wrong.

0 basis, all assumption. Feel free to substantiate what you said though, since you're more informed.

--Do you work in Atlanta?

[wlee1220]

Is this thread real life?

Anyway, Penn

Definitely real life. Just concerned I'm not putting myself in the best position to return to Atlanta. Sounds dumb as hell I know, which is why I said ordinarily it would be Penn no question.

As for the other degree, I'm a pretty religious person and wanna do some side work in my denomination but they require a Master's degree.

[twenty]

It's worth mentioning OP is also a URM.

Penn is TCR because Vandy is almost not worth 150k. Vandy will almost certainly not get you prestigious PI, and Penn isn't exactly super likely to either -- but at least Penn will give you a substantially better shot at biglaw.

I would try and get Vandy to beat the Penn offer. If Vandy goes down to 60k-80k COA, maybe do that instead.

[NYSprague]

What are the chances you will get back to Atlanta anyway? It's a tiny, competitive market from everything I've read. (Edit: I mean big law)
You should go to Penn and forget the other masters.
Or maybe not go to law school if Atlanta and the church matter so much?

[twenty]

Also, if the M.Div is free to OP, would it be free after he graduates from law school? I know literally nothing about M.Div programs, but if his church is funding it or something, I'd guess he could do a part-time M.Div while he's working.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[wlee1220]

Don't want to delve too into the church thing, but it wouldn't be a second career by far. Our denomination just has some stupid requirements for ordination into certain positions. Its not anything worth pursuing outside of law school. Going for free is contingent on a few things that could change in a couple years.

As far as Atl goes, I went to undergrad there, worked there for a year after graduation and my SO is from there . I only came back to the Philly area because I got a decent job offer but I don't want to be here long term (turned out to not like the job so much either). I know the market is incredibly difficult to crack, but I wanted to position myself for the best chance to get in there. If it matters, I'm also AA male. I hope my ties would help too.

I am pretty much set on Penn but I wanted to see if I could negotiate my Vandy scholarship before I committed. From what I'm hearing here, Penn seems to be the general consensus.

[NYSprague]

Don't want to delve too into the church thing, but it wouldn't be a second career by far. Our denomination just has some stupid requirements for ordination into certain positions. Its not anything worth pursuing outside of law school. Going for free is contingent on a few things that could change in a couple years.

As far as Atl goes, I went to undergrad there, worked there for a year after graduation and my SO is from there . I only came back to the Philly area because I got a decent job offer but I don't want to be here long term (turned out to not like the job so much either). I know the market is incredibly difficult to crack, but I wanted to position myself for the best chance to get in there. If it matters, I'm also AA male. I hope my ties would help too.

I am pretty much set on Penn but I wanted to see if I could negotiate my Vandy scholarship before I committed. From what I'm hearing here, Penn seems to be the general consensus.

Yes, your ties will help. But, look at some threads here on Atlanta, it seems grade conscious as well. I just wanted you to understand how difficult it might be. You should go to Penn.

[ilikebaseball]

-The schools you are considering: Vanderbilt and Penn
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. Vandy = 150,000; Penn = 120,000 (numbers include savings/family contributions and interest)
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings : Mostly through loans, a little through savings and family.
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any) : From Philly area, have significant ties to Atlanta and want to return after graduation.
-Your general career goals: Mainly prestigious PI, but not totally excluding biglaw
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 160/3.4
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 3 times

Other Information:
Ordinarily, I would think that Penn is the obvious choice. The only reason why I'm still considering Vanderbilt is because they have the joint-degree program that I want to pursue that Penn doesn't have, and I would be able to get the second degree for free (M.Div.). Also, I'm slightly concerned that it may be very hard to get back to Atlanta from Penn since most of the students are NYC bound.

]

You got into vandy and penn with a 160?

[star fox]

That big law + fed clerk number is sexy from Penn. Definitely do that.

[wlee1220]

-The schools you are considering: Vanderbilt and Penn
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. Vandy = 150,000; Penn = 120,000 (numbers include savings/family contributions and interest)
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings : Mostly through loans, a little through savings and family.
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any) : From Philly area, have significant ties to Atlanta and want to return after graduation.
-Your general career goals: Mainly prestigious PI, but not totally excluding biglaw
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 160/3.4
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 3 times

Other Information:
Ordinarily, I would think that Penn is the obvious choice. The only reason why I'm still considering Vanderbilt is because they have the joint-degree program that I want to pursue that Penn doesn't have, and I would be able to get the second degree for free (M.Div.). Also, I'm slightly concerned that it may be very hard to get back to Atlanta from Penn since most of the students are NYC bound.

]

You got into vandy and penn with a 160?

I got into Vandy with a 160. I had applied to school two years ago, didn't like my options and did so poorly on the LSAT that I decided to wait it out. Before I took it I was PTing in the high 160s and got crushed when I only got 160. I decided to go ahead, apply and see what happens. I got waitlisted at Penn initially. I found out by contacting LSAC that I could retake the LSAT in June, did so, got a 168, and wrote a couple LOCIs to Penn. Some of that, plus my URM type, probably helped me get in off the waitlist.

Honestly, my cycle surprised the hell out of me, even as a URM. I don't wanna get into an AA conversation, but I would be lying if I didn't think it played at all in my admissions. From speaking to different adcomm people, I was told that my essays were really solid and I have good working experience/softs/etc. And, before it comes, I'm not trolling at all.

[Jchance]

U can sit out with a 168+3.4 and try again next year. Being URM (AA), u'll get a lot better options.

[twenty]

Maybe, but Penn for 120k is a solid choice no matter how you look at it.

[arklaw13]

Rising Vandy 2L here. If you have to choose this cycle, I'd probably go with Penn. It's a safer bet and generally worth $30k more than Vandy, although personally I would be too debt averse to take Penn at $150k. If you want ATL, you can get it at Penn just as easily as Vandy. The ATL firms are grade/prestige snobs. I think you generally need top 20% at Vandy to have a shot, although your URM status may give you a boost. ATL firms aren't hiring many people. If their cutuffs are a bit lower at Penn, it can only work to your advantage. Plus, NYC is a good backup market and you'll get there much easier from Penn.

As far as the M.Div joint degree, there was a person in my section doing it. If you want, PM me and I'll give you his email and you can ask him any question you have about it. He's a nice guy and I'm sure would be happy to help. Not sure what kind of deadlines you're looking at, though.

[wlee1220]

Maybe, but Penn for 120k is a solid choice no matter how you look at it.

Yea this was my thinking. I could theoretically sit out again and reapply, but imo my chances at Y and S are pretty slim. I guess I may be in play at H, and would get at least one of CCN, but I don't think I would have much better options at CCN that would justify giving up P at 120K and I'm not all that sold on H at sticker (if I even got in). This seems to go against what I hear on TLS, but I'm pretty much not against reapplying. The more I think, the more I'm leaning P.

[Trig]

Another vote here for Penn. The cost is very reasonable, and I can't imagine that Penn + ties will not get you back to ATL.

[Ti Malice]

Re: getting back to Atlanta, Penn should give you as good if not better opportunities.

Do you have a basis for this knowledge? Because it is simply wrong.

What's the basis for your claim? Because I don't think anyone here would agree with you.

OP, take Penn without a second's hesitation.

[Ti Malice]

Re: getting back to Atlanta, Penn should give you as good if not better opportunities.

Do you have a basis for this knowledge? Because it is simply wrong.

0 basis, all assumption. Feel free to substantiate what you said though, since you're more informed.

--Do you work in Atlanta?

No, he just finished 1L at WUSTL.

[BruceWayne]

Fellow AA male here. Very familiar with the Atlanta market. Here's my take.


Honestly, you're probably not getting Atlanta no matter which of the two you attend. But if you just want to talk chances of getting an Atlanta firm, your shot coming from Vandy is going to be about the same as it would be from Penn. Atlanta is a brutal market and to be honest you can't aim for it before law school unless you have ties and are heading to HYS. It's not really a market that cares whether you went to Penn over Vandy.

Looking at your individual situation: I would lean towards Penn at that price. The truth is that if you get bad grades you are in a lot of trouble at either school; but if you get good grades at Penn your shot at Atlanta won't be significantly different than it would be from Vandy (assuming you play up those Atlanta connections). But your shot at every other market will be better. Still you need to know just how bad your chances are at Atlanta. To be honest if you do not make it into the top 1/3rd of your class at one of these schools you can probably kiss Atlanta goodbye. I have to say that I'm a bit surprised Vandy isn't trying to compete more with your Penn offer. Good luck!

[Nomo]

Vandy will make it significantly harder to get prestigious PI and biglaw. It also costs more. This seems like an obvious choice.

Though it might make sense to sit out this year and see if your options are better going a full cycle with that 168. June LSAT takers were way down and all signs point to another decline in law school applications. That should mean more options and more money for you.

[wlee1220]

Fellow AA male here. Very familiar with the Atlanta market. Here's my take.


Honestly, you're probably not getting Atlanta no matter which of the two you attend. But if you just want to talk chances of getting an Atlanta firm, your shot coming from Vandy is going to be about the same as it would be from Penn. Atlanta is a brutal market and to be honest you can't aim for it before law school unless you have ties and are heading to HYS. It's not really a market that cares whether you went to Penn over Vandy.

Looking at your individual situation: I would lean towards Penn at that price. The truth is that if you get bad grades you are in a lot of trouble at either school; but if you get good grades at Penn your shot at Atlanta won't be significantly different than it would be from Vandy (assuming you play up those Atlanta connections). But your shot at every other market will be better. Still you need to know just how bad your chances are at Atlanta. To be honest if you do not make it into the top 1/3rd of your class at one of these schools you can probably kiss Atlanta goodbye. I have to say that I'm a bit surprised Vandy isn't trying to compete more with your Penn offer. Good luck!

Got my offer from Penn off the waitlist Friday afternoon, ironically after I was coming home from Nashville apartment hunting, so I haven't really even had the chance to negotiate with them yet. From what everyone tells me though Vandy is extremely hard to bargain with and has a pretty strict no-negotiations policy. I'm hoping they would come up since I've already deposited there but I'm not holding my breath.