Chicago $$$ vs HLS (How much does lay rep matter?) Forum

HLSorChicago · Post by **HLSorChicago** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:48 pm

I was recently accepted off the WL to Harvard. I have a six-figure (but not quite full) scholarship offer to Chicago. I am strongly leaning toward C, where I have deposited. Harvard has a certain mystique to it that Chicago lacks. But the available data indicate that I'm overwhelmingly likely to get the same job out of both schools. Like H, C has managed to place the large majority* of its class in BigLaw despite the legal market's crash. In fact, it seems like the actual differences in outcome between Harvard and Chicago are small (as in, a lot smaller than the differences between Chicago and, say, Berkeley) The data would seem to make this decision a no-brainer, given all the money on the line. But all the TLS Harvard-shilling has given me pause. People always mention the intangible factor of lay prestige when they talk about Harvard.

My question: Is lay rep just about getting laid and worshiped, or does it make a difference in employment? All the people from top firms (not just in the law) I talk to have heard of and have great respect for Chicago. I get wanting to get laid and be worshiped by random people -- it's irritating that all my friends say I should go to Georgetown or whatever. But that isn't worth 100k to me, unless it comes with concrete employment benefits.

* See http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata

ymmv · Post by **ymmv** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:52 pm

Take the money and never look back.
Let's not have this thread twice in one week: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=232090

CoffeeIsLife · Post by **CoffeeIsLife** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:02 pm

I think you should go with Chicago it is a great school with a solid scholarship. I guess the biggest question is how much need base aid could you get from H?

mt2165 · Post by **mt2165** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:02 pm

HLSorChicago wrote: it's irritating that all my friends say I should go to Georgetown or whatever. But that isn't worth 100k to me, unless it comes with concrete employment benefits.

* See http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata

LOL if anyone on this planet ever takes Gtown over Chicago for really any reason at all, let alone with a 100k differential Im not sure I really understand anything at all about this life. But seriously you cant listen to your friends, I had the same problem. They just dont get it, and they probably never will. They dont get the legal market, how much loans you'll have to take out, etc. You just need to look at LST and remind yourself that pretty much anything you want to do at HLS you can do at C and that whatever cost differential between the two is real and will greatly impact your life for the next decade.

Jaqen · Post by **Jaqen** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:11 pm

I think you should take the money p much regardless, but: what is your goal? Biglaw or something else? Where?

rahulg91 · Post by **rahulg91** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:16 pm

mt2165 wrote:
HLSorChicago wrote: it's irritating that all my friends say I should go to Georgetown or whatever. But that isn't worth 100k to me, unless it comes with concrete employment benefits.

* See http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
LOL if anyone on this planet ever takes Gtown over Chicago for really any reason at all, let alone with a 100k differential Im not sure I really understand anything at all about this life.

Dat East Coast preftige

HLSorChicago · Post by **HLSorChicago** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:18 pm

Jaqen wrote:I think you should take the money p much regardless, but: what is your goal? Biglaw or something else? Where?

I want to do Biglaw. I am also interested in working in-house at a big corporation eventually, once I settle down... On the subject of settling down, my life before that would be a lot more memorable with HLS

And I would never consider Georgetown over Chicago. I mentioned the fact that all of my moron friends tell me to pick the former (and congratulated me for getting into the former but not the latter) to illustrate Chicago's lack of lay rep. My question is whether lay rep matters for anything other than getting laid.

mt2165 · Post by **mt2165** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:21 pm

HLSorChicago wrote:
Jaqen wrote:I think you should take the money p much regardless, but: what is your goal? Biglaw or something else? Where?
I want to do Biglaw. I am also interested in working in-house at a big corporation eventually, once I settle down... On the subject of settling down, my life before that would be a lot more memorable with HLS

And I would never consider Georgetown over Chicago. I mentioned the fact that all of my moron friends tell me to pick the former (and congratulated me for getting into the former but not the latter) to illustrate Chicago's lack of lay rep. My question is whether lay rep matters for anything other than getting laid.

lay rep aint shit unless you leave the legal industry for another one, which if you plan on you prolly just shouldnt go to ls. And for biglaw then in-house chicago all the way. I made a similar decision between cornell and columbia and while not really the same I feel like once I get out of law school i'll be so happy i took the money. And I really feel you on the moron friends....they dont know shit.

HLSorChicago · Post by **HLSorChicago** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:27 pm

mt2165 wrote:
HLSorChicago wrote:
Jaqen wrote:I think you should take the money p much regardless, but: what is your goal? Biglaw or something else? Where?
I want to do Biglaw. I am also interested in working in-house at a big corporation eventually, once I settle down... On the subject of settling down, my life before that would be a lot more memorable with HLS

And I would never consider Georgetown over Chicago. I mentioned the fact that all of my moron friends tell me to pick the former (and congratulated me for getting into the former but not the latter) to illustrate Chicago's lack of lay rep. My question is whether lay rep matters for anything other than getting laid.
lay rep aint shit unless you leave the legal industry for another one, which if you plan on you prolly just shouldnt go to ls. And for biglaw then in-house chicago all the way. I made a similar decision between cornell and columbia and while not really the same I feel like once I get out of law school i'll be so happy i took the money. And I really feel you on the moron friends....they dont know shit.

Is there even evidence that Chicago isn't good outside the legal industry? It has a shit reputation 'outside the legal industry' if by outside the industry, you're referring to the general non-legal population. But I'm thinking of big (non-legal) corporations in big markets. According to USNWR, top corporations consider Chicago (college) as good as or better than any school after HYP and Stanford. I think the only time Chicago would hurt you is if you're not working at a top firm, but at some random upper-middle class firm in a smaller market. That is where the Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Tulane grad would shine. Otherwise, it will probably be the same situation as law: Not quite as good as Harvard, but very respected.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about the outside the industry thing, because that's a tempting eventual option for me.

jingosaur · Post by **jingosaur** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:06 pm

Chicago is one of the best universities in the country and if you're working in any sort of a respected profession, the people that you work with with have respect for the Chicago name. People who think UChicago sucks or don't know what it is will generally not be in positions where they will have to make a hiring decision on you. Chicago's B-School is also one of the best in the country, so corporate hiring managers also have a lot of respect for UChicago.

That being said, I think HLS has very material advantage for a lot of people, but definitely not all. If you just want to practice at a BigLaw firm and don't have any kind of preference for what kind of BigLaw, then just take the money because your chances of getting BigLaw out of Chicago are high enough as it is. The advantages of HLS in BigLaw kick in if you have fairly specific interests in niche fields that really care about prestige (i.e. working with Private Equity and VC clients), if you are gunning to eventually become a C-Suite executive (a lot of Fortune 500 CEOs have HLS degrees), or if you want to work in a very small and selective market.
From what I've read, it doesn't sound like you fit any of those profiles.

Crowing · Post by **Crowing** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:40 pm

HLSorChicago wrote:
Jaqen wrote:I think you should take the money p much regardless, but: what is your goal? Biglaw or something else? Where?
I want to do Biglaw. I am also interested in working in-house at a big corporation eventually, once I settle down... On the subject of settling down, my life before that would be a lot more memorable with HLS

And I would never consider Georgetown over Chicago. I mentioned the fact that all of my moron friends tell me to pick the former (and congratulated me for getting into the former but not the latter) to illustrate Chicago's lack of lay rep. My question is whether lay rep matters for anything other than getting laid.

I don't think it even matters for this, but ymmv I guess lol

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:29 pm

Do you have total COA's?

With this information, indisputably Chicago. "lay prestige" is only worth as much as what your brain thinks it is (and as for 'getting laid', we are attorneys-in-training, not rock stars - the credential isn't particularly sexy). I think jingosaur raises some good points about harvard university network as an advantage for elite finance, but as a counterpoint, it's pretty negligible sample - eight (8) of 498 CEO's went to harvard law - not exactly a dominating presence, and as of just a few years ago the dubious honor was cls's (Harvard as a university at large is definitely the best represented in the upper echelon's of business community though). On the other hand, as you site, the differences in objective employment outcomes are small. I would point out that Harvard as an institution punches with more impressive force since it's employing three times the graduating class of Chicago at the same rate, but that should have no bearing on your decision since you want to consider what the school can do for you, at what cost.

The other factor to consider is where you want to work. If you want Chicago (obviously), NY, or another midwestern market, that clearly points in favor of Chicago again. If you are targeting a very obscure or competitive market, i.e., SF, DC, Miami, Harvard will place stronger than Chicago. Of course, not $100,000+ harder, but it's a variable to consider.

There are two scenarios. One is where your parents are fronting the bill and money is little object (or H offers substantially similar need-based aid, which is unlikely). Then, go to Harvard. You can rest a little easier and enjoy the network and prestige for whatever satisfaction it gives you.

The second is that you are loaning your tuition and living expenses from the federal government. I don't really know how to explain what it feels like to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt in words. I don't even have that much because I took the money but I have some and it's basically the worst I've ever felt about anything in my life - while different in scale, worse than getting dumped by my high school GF when I was 18. It's tolerable since I know I'll get a great job and pay it off, but if I had much more, even with substantially similar job prospects...

The "mystique" and "intangible" feels like bullshit and will wear off a lot faster than the years of debt servitude. Good luck with your choice and congrats on your admission (no one can take that "prestige" away from you, haha), but I think your gut to stick with the money is right on.

Ti Malice · Post by **Ti Malice** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:31 pm

For your goals, easily Chicago.

Forget this lay prestige nonsense. The lay public doesn't hire you or pay off your debt. This idea that your pre-marriage life will be more exciting because you can say you went to HLS is also abject silliness. No one swoons over a law student as such, regardless of law school. The charge you get out of wearing your HLS t-shirt will wear off quickly, but the shittiness of paying an extra $1,400 per month (and the concomitant opportunity costs) will be with you for ten years.

mt2165 · Post by **mt2165** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:37 pm

Yeah I'm not sure if you thought I was insinuating chicago doesn't have lay prestige. My point was simply that for those whose opinion actually matter, legal employers, corporations, and the like, chicago is plenty prestigious. The difference between that and H clearly isn't 100k.

Hutz_and_Goodman · Post by **Hutz_and_Goodman** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:54 pm

Don't be an idiot

Chicago

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:23 pm

Post removed.

jd20132013 · Post by **jd20132013** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:27 pm

wait OP do you really think HLS is going to get you laid?

the only people that "get laid" off a law school are people that didn't need the law school name in the first place

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:35 pm

Post removed.

star fox · Post by **star fox** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:47 am

Lay prestige is stupid. The people who have never heard of the university of Chicago are the people who don't matter. The reason more people are more familiar with Georgetown is because of college basketball.

tskela · Post by **tskela** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:39 am

In my experience, Chicago definitely has lay prestige based off of its UG. I'm pretty sure the entire top 10% of my high school class were targeting UChicago. It could just be the area I'm in, but everyone knows Chicago is prestigious.

Totally anecdotal, I realize. But I wouldn't worry about the lay prestige issue too much.

HLSorChicago · Post by **HLSorChicago** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:08 pm

tskela wrote:In my experience, Chicago definitely has lay prestige based off of its UG. I'm pretty sure the entire top 10% of my high school class were targeting UChicago. It could just be the area I'm in, but everyone knows Chicago is prestigious.

Totally anecdotal, I realize. But I wouldn't worry about the lay prestige issue too much.

Totally anecdotal, but my Harvard acceptance has already gotten me laid twice, and I'm no Gosling. I have a douchey personality (can't you tell?) so I don't think it was some sort of placebo effect/illusory confidence boost; it was teh Harvard. As we speak, I am opening my FB to a bunch of hotties' (who have ignored me for years) flirty "congratulations" Facebook messages. Maybe the six figure debt is worth it; at least I won't have to fly to Nevada or Thailand with HLS!

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:34 pm

so, my authoritative pseudo-scientific workup of lay prestige for colleges (all, not just law schools) has UChicago at 11th. Not too shabby. (Princeton is #1, FYI).

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:34 pm

HLSorChicago wrote:
tskela wrote:In my experience, Chicago definitely has lay prestige based off of its UG. I'm pretty sure the entire top 10% of my high school class were targeting UChicago. It could just be the area I'm in, but everyone knows Chicago is prestigious.

Totally anecdotal, I realize. But I wouldn't worry about the lay prestige issue too much.
Totally anecdotal, but my Harvard acceptance has already gotten me laid twice, and I'm no Gosling. I have a douchey personality (can't you tell?) so I don't think it was some sort of placebo effect/illusory confidence boost; it was teh Harvard. As we speak, I am opening my FB to a bunch of hotties' (who have ignored me for years) flirty "congratulations" Facebook messages. Maybe the six figure debt is worth it; at least I won't have to fly to Nevada or Thailand with HLS!

i'm assuming you're joking (it's funny!), also posting acceptances on fb.. meh.. not attractive.

HLSorChicago · Post by **HLSorChicago** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:39 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
HLSorChicago wrote:
tskela wrote:In my experience, Chicago definitely has lay prestige based off of its UG. I'm pretty sure the entire top 10% of my high school class were targeting UChicago. It could just be the area I'm in, but everyone knows Chicago is prestigious.

Totally anecdotal, I realize. But I wouldn't worry about the lay prestige issue too much.
Totally anecdotal, but my Harvard acceptance has already gotten me laid twice, and I'm no Gosling. I have a douchey personality (can't you tell?) so I don't think it was some sort of placebo effect/illusory confidence boost; it was teh Harvard. As we speak, I am opening my FB to a bunch of hotties' (who have ignored me for years) flirty "congratulations" Facebook messages. Maybe the six figure debt is worth it; at least I won't have to fly to Nevada or Thailand with HLS!
i'm assuming you're joking (it's funny!), also posting acceptances on fb.. meh.. not attractive.

Of course I didn't post my HLS acceptance to FB. (I had my sister post it to hers, duh.)

ymmv · Post by **ymmv** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:41 pm

jbagelboy wrote:so, my authoritative pseudo-scientific workup of lay prestige for colleges (all, not just law schools) has UChicago at 11th. Not too shabby. (Princeton is #1, FYI).

Is this global or US-only? I'd be surprised if UChi missed the top 10 on a solely American UG list.