Update: CLS vs T-10 Forum

[China Spy]

Please don't quote

Sup TLS,

I'm currently set to attend one of MVPB the COA will be as follows:

Best case scenario: If I live frugally, get a PT job as a 2L and get a SA I may be looking at a COA of 50-60k including interest.
Worst case scenario: I take out max amount of loans I’m allowed, no PT jobs, no SA, then my COA would be between 80-90k including interest.
Basically, the cost of tuition will be covered by fin aid and COL will all be loans. I have no savings and will receive no parental support. I also have no ug debt.

HS isn't happening but I got a call from Columbia yesterday. They told me they'd give me a fin aid offer later today, my guess is that they'll make an offer somewhere between 60-70k just based on what the other CCN's offered me. Was wondering at what price it would be right for me to go. I'm assuming negotiations will be done over the phone since I asked for an admissions offer in writing and they said I'd need to commit verbally first.

My current goal is Biglaw (CA>NY). Not sure if I’m interested in transactional law or lit. If I decide to go down the lit route I'd gun for a clerkship --> lit Biglaw.

So what price TLS?

[SteelPenguin]

With such a low coa and for your goals, I would probably go now. You'll be going to an excellent school with very little debt, and VP are great for biglaw. I'd be a little more hesitant if your current choice is Michigan.

If you sit out, what are your current plans for the next year?

[redsoxfan1989]

Do you have a job lined up that you could fall back on? If you don't have a back-up option and you truly want to be a lawyer, take the money and go. Lower T-14 for free is an amazing deal, especially if your goal is simply Big Law. If you have a job to hold you over or if you have doubts about law practice, retake and don't go.

[jbagelboy]

Take the money now and attend (assuming you want to practice law). It won't get cheaper. Everyone gets cold feet before heading off to a new life track. You're headed to a great school at low cost; be confident.

[twenty]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

[Power_of_Facing]

Retake the money.

[Otunga]

Small law or no law job with 80k debt would still suck. Big law with minimal debt is the more likely outcome, however, so I'd say to go, presuming obviously that there's good reason for you wanting to practice.

[jingosaur]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

[China Spy]

With such a low coa and for your goals, I would probably go now. You'll be going to an excellent school with very little debt, and VP are great for biglaw. I'd be a little more hesitant if your current choice is Michigan.

its not Mich.

If you sit out, what are your current plans for the next year?

Do you have a job lined up that you could fall back on?

I do have a job lined up but its nothing glamorous/substantive also not law related.

If you don't have a back-up option and you truly want to be a lawyer, take the money and go. Lower T-14 for free is an amazing deal, especially if your goal is simply Big Law. If you have a job to hold you over or if you have doubts about law practice, retake and don't go.

I don't have doubts about practicing law, just doubts about the likelihood of getting a big law job out of the school I'm going to. HS would give me a better shot but not sure if it would be worth holding out one year and paying more to improve my odds.

[jbagelboy]

With such a low coa and for your goals, I would probably go now. You'll be going to an excellent school with very little debt, and VP are great for biglaw. I'd be a little more hesitant if your current choice is Michigan.

its not Mich.

If you sit out, what are your current plans for the next year?

Do you have a job lined up that you could fall back on?

I do have a job lined up but its nothing glamorous/substantive also not law related.

If you don't have a back-up option and you truly want to be a lawyer, take the money and go. Lower T-14 for free is an amazing deal, especially if your goal is simply Big Law. If you have a job to hold you over or if you have doubts about law practice, retake and don't go.

I don't have doubts about practicing law, just doubts about the likelihood of getting a big law job out of the school I'm going to. HS would give me a better shot but not sure if it would be worth holding out one year and paying more to improve my odds.

If biglaw is your target, as long as you don't want some obscure market your chances out of virginia and penn are very strong. This would be a different conversation if you were looking at a weaker placing school like Georgetown. It's rarely worth the extra cost for the 'improved' chances at this level for your goals.

[03152016]

damn, uva or penn full ride is an amazing outcome
gj on winning the ls admissions game

attend

[SteelPenguin]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

Why do you strongly disagree with this for biglaw?

[jbagelboy]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

Why do you strongly disagree with this for biglaw?

B/c jing is starting at hls in the fall

HS are "better" for security at large firms and since grade sensitive firms dig deeper into their class. That's objectively true: HS are probably ~90-92% oci success rate, penn low 80%'s and virginia 75-80%. But that 10-15% placement shelter is only worth so much in hard cash, and that amount may be where jing and I would disagree. I'd argue it's worth quite a bit but not hundreds of thousands of dollars & for OP to give up their current scholarship for the *chance* at a 5th retake.

[jingosaur]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

Why do you strongly disagree with this for biglaw?

I took it as a general statement. If you goal is a $160k salary at a law firm, then it becomes more correct. I also wanted to emphasize that I'm very for going to YHS over lower T14s in most situations but even with that in mind, in OP's position, I would go to law school with his/her current option.

[Ti Malice]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

Not necessarily when this is the case:

I know TLS consensus is to go with the money but if i was to get in to HS I’m willing to bet I’d get max financial need based aid these schools offer, or close to it. (Ex. I received ~22k at UCLA/Cal/Penn in need based aid alone).

[daleearnhardt123]

URM at V or P probably has to be at the very very bottom of the class to not get biglaw. S and H won't offer much more safety. Also, it seems like H and especially S might still be reaches. No reason not to take the money and go.

[China Spy]

Bump, new info in OP

[TheSpanishMain]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

Why do you strongly disagree with this for biglaw?

I took it as a general statement. If you goal is a $160k salary at a law firm, then it becomes more correct. I also wanted to emphasize that I'm very for going to YHS over lower T14s in most situations but even with that in mind, in OP's position, I would go to law school with his/her current option.

The only situation where I can see HYS > T14 with a full ride is if a) you're targeting a smaller market, and you really need to be there or B) you're looking for a prestigious PI/Gov gig and will fall back on school loan repayment assistance. Yes, HYS will give you a better chance at Big Law, but when the difference is between 70% and 90%, I just don't think that extra 20% cushion is worth 100k extra debt. For the OP, I'd vote go with the current option, especially if the school is Berkeley given she's targeting CA.

One man's opinion, though. I'm probably more debt averse than most.

[rayiner]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

Why do you strongly disagree with this for biglaw?

Because jingosaur has yet to make a student loan payment.

[Winston1984]

If it was Berk, I'd probably take Berk.

[China Spy]

Update: Negotiated Columbia up to the 80-90k range. Looking at COA of ~170k without interest (190k with interest?) COA at the T-10 is in the 80-90k with interest. Not sure what to do now, have until the end of the day to decide. PM for the name of the T-10. TYIA

[rpupkin]

Update: Negotiated Columbia up to the 80-90k range. Looking at COA of ~170k without interest (190k with interest?) COA at the T-10 is in the 80-90k with interest. Not sure what to do now, have until the end of the day to decide. PM for the name of the T-10. TYIA

You've been pretty vague here, but I struggle to imagine a scenario in which it would be worth it to pay $100K more for CLS over Penn, Berkeley, or Virginia.

[jbagelboy]

how much do you care about working at a v20ish firm? I guess you can't really know that as an 0L. If you just want any large firm job then it's definitely not worth the extra $90-100K for Columbia. If you want to work at the highest brass corporate firms (and get paid the same tho) then it might be worth it to you - although this is difficult to value right now. I can't say there's no difference at that level in hiring, because frankly there is. Personally I'd take the "T10" until you get CLS to $150K. But I also care more about living in NY than some (this is moot for Cal since SF is awesome).

[China Spy]

Update: Negotiated Columbia up to the 80-90k range. Looking at COA of ~170k without interest (190k with interest?) COA at the T-10 is in the 80-90k with interest. Not sure what to do now, have until the end of the day to decide. PM for the name of the T-10. TYIA

You've been pretty vague here, but I struggle to imagine a scenario in which it would be worth it to pay $100K more for CLS over Penn, Berkeley, or Virginia.

The poster above my previous post got it right. And you're right, I think I just panicked and reverted to that naive 0L ranking obsession.

how much do you care about working at a v20ish firm? I guess you can't really know that as an 0L. If you just want any large firm job then it's definitely not worth the extra $90-100K for Columbia. If you want to work at the highest brass corporate firms (and get paid the same tho) then it might be worth it to you - although this is difficult to value right now. I can't say there's no difference at that level in hiring, because frankly there is. Personally I'd take the "T10" until you get CLS to $150K. But I also care more about living in NY than some (this is moot for Cal since SF is awesome).

Not very. Goal is CA where vault ranking doesn't matter (right?). If I end up below median then I'll be forced to go all in on NY and at that point vault rankings are moot since beggars can't be choosers.

TL;DR turned down Columbia offer.

[Mal Reynolds]

A lower T14 for that price > H/S.

I strongly disagree with this statement, but I still think that you should go this year. You have a good offer on the table and there's no guarantee that you'll get into H or S if you reapply next year. Enjoy your relatively small amount of debt and best of luck!

Why do you strongly disagree with this for biglaw?

Because jingosaur has yet to make a student loan payment.

LOL