UMass Dartmouth....seriously! Forum

[transferror]

If you will be able to live off of your teaching pension and are fine going solo (though you will need start-up cash) or working at a small firm, choose your cheapest option so long as you will be under 25k in debt upon graduation. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but if you can live on your pension and get a JD for close to free, it's not a terrible idea either.

[RichardWalter]

I have a friend starting at UMass PT. He's aware of the market and how awful it is, but he'll only have 50k debt and will work FT while he attends in a job that I believe is not as good as your teaching job. Do you hate your job that much? What's the reason for pursuing law practice now? I doubt you'll obtain something very fulfilling after law school. I think you're better off staying with your job and attending PT if you must go.

As I stated, my plan is to go to school part-time and continue to work as a teacher. Once I am done, I can work as a JD or not; I will still be able to teach. And my school bumps up my salary for the advanced degree. I want a JD, I don't NEED one. It's not about the money; . My wife has a good job (M.D.), we have properties, money in the bank, pensions, etc.

Also, as a 50-year-old I have years of experience that no 25-year-old can offer.

[TheSpanishMain]

Yeah, I'm not sure this is a good plan per se, but if you are financially secure and retaining your day job, it's probably not going to ruin your life if it doesn't work out.

[Otunga]

Yeah, I'm not sure this is a good plan per se, but if you are financially secure and retaining your day job, it's probably not going to ruin your life if it doesn't work out.

It's a permissible choice then. But I'd go to the library and browse reddit to learn legal theories and philosophies before years of law school. OP, have you considered a humanities advanced degree?

[TooManyLoans]

I have a friend starting at UMass PT. He's aware of the market and how awful it is, but he'll only have 50k debt and will work FT while he attends in a job that I believe is not as good as your teaching job. Do you hate your job that much? What's the reason for pursuing law practice now? I doubt you'll obtain something very fulfilling after law school. I think you're better off staying with your job and attending PT if you must go.

As I stated, my plan is to go to school part-time and continue to work as a teacher. Once I am done, I can work as a JD or not; I will still be able to teach. And my school bumps up my salary for the advanced degree. I want a JD, I don't NEED one. It's not about the money; . My wife has a good job (M.D.), we have properties, money in the bank, pensions, etc.

Also, as a 50-year-old I have years of experience that no 25-year-old can offer.

[kalvano]

Also, as a 50-year-old I have years of experience that no 25-year-old can offer.

You and the 25 year old will be exactly the same with regards to being an attorney.

[Otunga]

Also, as a 50-year-old I have years of experience that no 25-year-old can offer.

You and the 25 year old will be exactly the same with regards to being an attorney.

Yeah...and that's the reason I'm asking OP if he's considered an advanced humanities degree. Identical job outcome...likely more fulfilling.

[timbs4339]

Also, as a 50-year-old I have years of experience that no 25-year-old can offer.

You and the 25 year old will be exactly the same with regards to being an attorney.

Yeah...and that's the reason I'm asking OP if he's considered an advanced humanities degree. Identical job outcome...likely more fulfilling.

Well he couldn't open his own solo law practice with a humanities degree, which is basically the only option for OP to find work as a lawyer unless he has pretty solid personal connections in the smallaw bar.

[oblitigate]

Using my own anecdotal experience as a reference, it is certainly not 30. 40 sounds right to me.

Yeah, I ask because I've seen a lot of older (let's say 30+) posters claim that their age/work experience seemed to give them an edge over k-jds. I'm sure there is a tipping point where it goes from an asset to a liability though

I could have sworn that meant contract JD (like contract lawyer?) until now. Total mind blow

[nygrrrl]

OP, as a fellow non trad (non traditional) student I'm going to first direct you here: OLD SCHOOL THREAD. You'll find a number of posters who can offer you advice from a 30 y.o.+ perspective and the thread may answer some of your questions right off the bat.

Having just completed an evening program (which I started when I was well north of 30), I'd be happy to share my thoughts/experiences about law school, being a non trad, changing careers, specific programs, etc. with you - but I am deep in bar prep right now so it's probably more efficient if you ask me specific questions. Feel free to post here (I'll try to check in with the thread periodically) or PM me.

[rahulg91]

Also, as a 50-year-old I have years of experience that no 25-year-old can offer.

LOL

[OutCold]

Look. I get that you think you are embarking on some new adventure by pursuing a JD, but you aren't going to find what you are looking for. Law school classes at T14s are huge wastes of time as it is. What do you expect the classes to be like surrounded by the crowd that attends a TTTT and the people who teach at a TTTT? You are going to pay for this waste of time. This waste of time is going to consume another four years (or more) of your life. Several nights a week, time you could be spending with your wife or family.

And then what? You graduate with a degree that probably won't even get you a job doing the lowliest of shit legal work. You mentioned that the advanced degree would get you a slight raise, then you go on to say that your wife already makes plenty of money and you have property, etc etc. You said earlier that you were for certain leaving teaching, so that point is irrelevant.

There are literally 1000's of careers you could start tomorrow that don't require you to waste your time and your money for four years to end up no better off than the day you enrolled.

[hawk5]

If your set on going and not going to listen to the practicing attorneys, please at least go to uconn. Not only is it cheaper than UMass Dartmouth, it's actually accredited and ranked. The part-time program shouldn't be that hard to get into in this admissions climate. Just put in the time to get into the mid-150s, which is by definition an average score. Finding employment will still be rough, but if your going to go solo in New England at least clients will have some respect for a uconn degree. If one year is the difference between a unaccredited TTT and an established state school it's well worth it regardless of your age.

[tabula rasa]

OP, go get an affordable master's in your subject and do adjunct junior college teaching. The gubmint hasn't stuck its tentacles into college curricula and there's no test to teach to.

Pay will probably be shit but you have a pension already.

[Otunga]

OP, go get an affordable master's in your subject and do adjunct junior college teaching. The gubmint hasn't stuck its tentacles into college curricula and there's no test to teach to.

Pay will probably be shit but you have a pension already.

Not a bad idea. And OP could tutor their subject.

[jkenyon2013]

OP, sorry I got to this post really late. Haven't been lurking these forums much lately (this is my first ever post here, actually).

I'm attending UMass Dartmouth Law part time this fall, and am looking forward to it. I initially got my teaching license and have been working in a school system for the last year, but I decided that it's not what I'd like to do for the rest of my life (I found out I don't like kids as much as I thought I would). Law School was my original plan during undergrad, but the state of the market and royally screwing my GPA in my first two years of undergrad dissuaded me from pursing it, and I fell back on Education. I live and work full time in the area (taking out no cost of living loans), I have a 50% scholarship ($9,000/year, contingent on a B average), and my job will pay for $1,500 of tuition per academic year ($6,750 total). All said and done, my JD will cost less than $40k. I turned down offers to Suffolk and Roger Williams because their job prospects in no way outweighed their cost (120k+ to RWU, and 200k+ at Suffolk). I, like you, don't have any intentions of trying to compete with folks in "big law." I have family in real estate and plan to go down that route, while also doing other small firm type work. I do not have a guaranteed job lined up, but I believe I have a big enough network to at least get my foot in the door. I plan to take full advantage of the clinics and other job placement opportunities the school offers to learn practical skills, and I hope to be able to grow my network on the MA South Coast while I attend.

To all the critics who will read this: I am fully aware of the situation I'm placing myself in, and I agree that it would be absolutely irresponsible to attend this school at full price with the expectation of landing a 160k/year job. For folks like myself and the OP who are not hell bent on big law, I think small "TTTT" schools are fine, so long as they are able to a.) minimize costs, b.) plan to live and work in the school's immediate geographic location, c.) understand they won't be making stupidly high amounts of money, and d.) have to work twice as hard to combat the TTTT stigma. Overall, I look forward to the next few years, and hopefully I can come out on the brighter side of things =]. Maybe I'll see you in some of my classes OP!

[pancakes3]

I do not have a guaranteed job lined up, but I believe I have a big enough network to at least get my foot in the door.

I don't think there'll be a door for you to get your foot in. You'll have to hang your own shingle and build your own door.

[jkenyon2013]

I do not have a guaranteed job lined up, but I believe I have a big enough network to at least get my foot in the door.

I don't think there'll be a door for you to get your foot in. You'll have to hang your own shingle and build your own door.

I've always been rather industrious.

[jbagelboy]

If you had a student who you knew had the potential to succeed and get an A on the final exam in your course, but simply refused to study and acted apathetic, accepting a sub-par outcome, would you tell them they are doing the right thing, or would you encourage them to study, take the test and take it again if given the opportunity to ace the course and benefit their future?

Or more importantly, what would you tell a student who came to you asking for a letter of recommendation to pay to attend this school? Or if your child asked you for advise - what would you say?

Yea, the analogy kinda sucks but you get what I'm going for. I'm shocked that someone who works with students and has the mental resources and experience you have wouldn't just suck it up and take the damn test again if you really wanted to go to law school. There is absolutely no reason for attending that school.

[jkenyon2013]

If you had a student who you knew had the potential to succeed and get an A on the final exam in your course, but simply refused to study and acted apathetic, accepting a sub-par outcome, would you tell them they are doing the right thing, or would you encourage them to study, take the test and take it again if given the opportunity to ace the course and benefit their future?

Or more importantly, what would you tell a student who came to you asking for a letter of recommendation to pay to attend this school? Or if your child asked you for advise - what would you say?

Yea, the analogy kinda sucks but you get what I'm going for. I'm shocked that someone who works with students and has the mental resources and experience you have wouldn't just suck it up and take the damn test again if you really wanted to go to law school. There is absolutely no reason for attending that school.

I agree with you about the retaking point, however, OP stated he doesn't wish to relocate. From his post history he lives in Rhode Island. There's only 2 schools that are realistically within commuting distance for anyone in RI, UMass Law and Roger Williams. UConn is well over an hour from Providence, and Quinnipiac is closer to two. The Boston Schools would be about a 90 minute commute accounting for Boston traffic. UMass Dartmouth and Roger Williams are about 30 minutes. That's huge for a commuter.

[jingosaur]

If you had a student who you knew had the potential to succeed and get an A on the final exam in your course, but simply refused to study and acted apathetic, accepting a sub-par outcome, would you tell them they are doing the right thing, or would you encourage them to study, take the test and take it again if given the opportunity to ace the course and benefit their future?

Or more importantly, what would you tell a student who came to you asking for a letter of recommendation to pay to attend this school? Or if your child asked you for advise - what would you say?

Yea, the analogy kinda sucks but you get what I'm going for. I'm shocked that someone who works with students and has the mental resources and experience you have wouldn't just suck it up and take the damn test again if you really wanted to go to law school. There is absolutely no reason for attending that school.

I agree with you about the retaking point, however, OP stated he doesn't wish to relocate. From his post history he lives in Rhode Island. There's only 2 schools that are realistically within commuting distance for anyone in RI, UMass Law and Roger Williams. UConn is well over an hour from Providence, and Quinnipiac is closer to two. The Boston Schools would be about a 90 minute commute accounting for Boston traffic. UMass Dartmouth and Roger Williams are about 30 minutes. That's huge for a commuter.

Based on the employment data that we have from UMass Dartmouth, it's very likely (I'd give it a 90+% chance) that not one person in that graduating class secured a job that pays more or is more rewarding than being a teacher. If you can't relocate to go to a better law school, then just don't go and find something else to do.

Maybe get certified as a real estate broker and give that a go? It's much faster and easier to get certified, you can build your network as you're teaching, and it can give you a better idea of whether you'll be "industrious" enough, as you put it, to start and build your own business.

[jkenyon2013]

Based on the employment data that we have from UMass Dartmouth, it's very likely (I'd give it a 90+% chance) that not one person in that graduating class secured a job that pays more or is more rewarding than being a teacher. If you can't relocate to go to a better law school, then just don't go and find something else to do.

Maybe get certified as a real estate broker and give that a go? It's much faster and easier to get certified, you can build your network as you're teaching, and it can give you a better idea of whether you'll be "industrious" enough, as you put it, to start and build your own business.

I know the numbers are shite for UMass Dartmouth, I've been staring at them for months. However, I think that 90% is a bit of a stretch. Starting teacher salaries are sub 40k/year for public schools, and lower for most private schools. And as far as "rewarding" goes, that is entirely too subjective to project onto an entire graduating class of students, some of whom may have had non-monetary goals in mind when choosing to attend.

Addressing your second point, I feel that law will be more intellectually stimulating than working as a broker. Real estate is an area in which I plan to enter, but it's not the only area which I want to limit myself to. Environmental, employment, and criminal law are fields which interest me as well, and which I could pursue or laterally transfer to.

[jd20132013]

someone has to be hiring for you to laterally transfer fyi

[objctnyrhnr]

OP, I do not think this is a good idea, but you do not need me to tell you that and I am not capable of putting myself in the shoes of somebody in your situation.

What I CAN tell you is that I am a recent grad from one of the top Boston schools. I am tapped into the community other recent grads who are interest in criminal defense to know that they would all absolutely kill for a job in public defense in the new england area (boston preferably, but certainly beyond as well), and NONE OF THEM ARE FINDING ANY JOBS.

This stems from a few issues:

1. public defense types love public defense. they didn't take the job for the money. they took it because they're shithammered off the cool-aid and, for that reason, it is very unlikely that they ever leave, so there are very few jobs opening up year by year.

2. the jobs that do open up in new england public defenders' offices are all mid or upper level jobs. i know this because I have spent a decent amount of time on the mass jobs website. i literally have never seen an entry level public defender job opening.

3. PD cool-aid drinkers, these days, can come from all walks of life INCLUDING top students at top schools. there are enough top students at top schools that even pretty good students at the top boston schools are utterly striking out when there are literally one or two spots in all of new england per year.

4. budget lack of resources yada yada not enough money to hire as many new people as they want.


What I can also tell you, OP, is that I happen know a handful of recent older suffolk universiTTT grads who were interest in moving to the suburbs and even far away from any legitimate cities, hanging their shingle, not terribly concerned with money (spouse with good job, family money) and all tried to hang their own shingle as entry level attorneys...and they are all failing miserably. would you be different? possibly...but probably not. think about it--why would a random client want to trust an enTTTry level aTTTorney with his subjectively important issues when there are tons of experienced attorneys who are dying for the business? it does not make any sense.

OP, you say that you have modest ambitions with the law degree...and I can see how you might think that. however, modest as they may seem (and many would argue that "just being a PD at a local spot" is not modest, especially not ITE), they are NOT realistic coming from an epic TTTT, especially if you presumably would not be willing to relocate following your graduation.

do. not. do. this. it's not just about the money/cost/debt. it's about the stupidity. sorry for the frankeness in this post.

[kalvano]

If you had a student who you knew had the potential to succeed and get an A on the final exam in your course, but simply refused to study and acted apathetic, accepting a sub-par outcome, would you tell them they are doing the right thing, or would you encourage them to study, take the test and take it again if given the opportunity to ace the course and benefit their future?

Or more importantly, what would you tell a student who came to you asking for a letter of recommendation to pay to attend this school? Or if your child asked you for advise - what would you say?

Yea, the analogy kinda sucks but you get what I'm going for. I'm shocked that someone who works with students and has the mental resources and experience you have wouldn't just suck it up and take the damn test again if you really wanted to go to law school. There is absolutely no reason for attending that school.

I agree with you about the retaking point, however, OP stated he doesn't wish to relocate. From his post history he lives in Rhode Island. There's only 2 schools that are realistically within commuting distance for anyone in RI, UMass Law and Roger Williams. UConn is well over an hour from Providence, and Quinnipiac is closer to two. The Boston Schools would be about a 90 minute commute accounting for Boston traffic. UMass Dartmouth and Roger Williams are about 30 minutes. That's huge for a commuter.

I commute 45-60 minutes one-way, every day, to get to work. He can certainly do it for three years to go to a school that is significantly better.