Which are the best, affordable, secondary law markets? Forum

[kentuckybbnlaw]

Hello, so I am trying to figure out which law schools to apply to. I have no interest in nyc/chi/la/sf. I would like to be in a smaller big city. This will obviously influence which schools I apply to. So what markets are the best in terms of affordability but still with a bigger city feel, and which schools should I apply to for said market? I have a 163 lsat and a 3.7 gpa. Any help/advice will be very much appreciated!

[anyriotgirl]

you are not going to get different answers by making a slightly different thread you know

[kentuckybbnlaw]

It is very different. My other thread I asked what people thought about specific schools/markets. I did not get very postive feedback, so I would like some advice then on which market/schools are best for what I would want.

[rad lulz]

.

[John Everyman]

I hear maritime law in Alaska is booming.

[Fiero85]

Same advice as other thread, OP:

(this dude/gal has ties to Kentucky and maybe Cali for those new to the subject at hand)

I recommend retaking and going to Vandy for cheap. From there, there are a couple of smaller big cities, namely Nashville, that you could target. Charlotte, Atlanta, etc come to mind too.

After that, I recommend WUSTL for cheap if you wanna try for a new place like KC or OKC.

USC/UCLA for cheap is another option if you're ok with a western "smaller big city".

Good luck!

[mr.hands]

Same advice as other thread, OP:

(this dude/gal has ties to Kentucky and maybe Cali for those new to the subject at hand)

I recommend retaking and going to Vandy for cheap. From there, there are a couple of smaller big cities, namely Nashville, that you could target. Charlotte, Atlanta, etc come to mind too.

After that, I recommend WUSTL for cheap if you wanna try for a new place like KC or OKC.

USC/UCLA for cheap is another option if you're ok with a western "smaller big city".

Good luck!

Wow I strongly disagree. Unless he improves by 6+ points on his retake, he won't get into these schools. If he does get that 6 point increase, he won't get much money to these places. Small scholarship in a market that he doesn't have ties to = bad idea

Assuming that he does get enough money to make this a good idea, OP doesn't have a chance at Nashville or Atlanta firms. He's not from either area, so he doesnt have an "in." He'd have to be at the very very top of his class to make up for that (which isn't statistically likely)

OP, if your ties are to Kentucky, go there and take the money. Believe me. As someone who took a 50k+ scholarship at a T14 and got an SA, the debt still scares the hell out of me. Crush at UK, work in Lexington or Louisville, and profit. Anything else is a huge, huge, huge risk

[BigZuck]

Same advice as other thread, OP:

(this dude/gal has ties to Kentucky and maybe Cali for those new to the subject at hand)

I recommend retaking and going to Vandy for cheap. From there, there are a couple of smaller big cities, namely Nashville, that you could target. Charlotte, Atlanta, etc come to mind too.

After that, I recommend WUSTL for cheap if you wanna try for a new place like KC or OKC.

USC/UCLA for cheap is another option if you're ok with a western "smaller big city".

Good luck!

Wow I strongly disagree. Unless he improves by 6+ points on his retake, he won't get into these schools. If he does get that 6 point increase, he won't get much money to these places. Small scholarship in a market that he doesn't have ties to = bad idea

Assuming that he does get enough money to make this a good idea, OP doesn't have a chance at Nashville or Atlanta firms. He's not from either area, so he doesnt have an "in." He'd have to be at the very very top of his class to make up for that (which isn't statistically likely)

OP, if your ties are to Kentucky, go there and take the money. Believe me. As someone who took a 50k+ scholarship at a T14 and got an SA, the debt still scares the hell out of me. Crush at UK, work in Lexington or Louisville, and profit. Anything else is a huge, huge, huge risk

wut

You don't think 3.7/169 will get a big scholarship to Vandy? Let alone WUSTL? It might depend somewhat on the x in 3.7x but those numbers should probably get like 90K at Cornell/Duke.

[Fiero85]

Same advice as other thread, OP:

(this dude/gal has ties to Kentucky and maybe Cali for those new to the subject at hand)

I recommend retaking and going to Vandy for cheap. From there, there are a couple of smaller big cities, namely Nashville, that you could target. Charlotte, Atlanta, etc come to mind too.

After that, I recommend WUSTL for cheap if you wanna try for a new place like KC or OKC.

USC/UCLA for cheap is another option if you're ok with a western "smaller big city".

Good luck!

Wow I strongly disagree. Unless he improves by 6+ points on his retake, he won't get into these schools. If he does get that 6 point increase, he won't get much money to these places. Small scholarship in a market that he doesn't have ties to = bad idea

Assuming that he does get enough money to make this a good idea, OP doesn't have a chance at Nashville or Atlanta firms. He's not from either area, so he doesnt have an "in." He'd have to be at the very very top of his class to make up for that (which isn't statistically likely)

OP, if your ties are to Kentucky, go there and take the money. Believe me. As someone who took a 50k+ scholarship at a T14 and got an SA, the debt still scares the hell out of me. Crush at UK, work in Lexington or Louisville, and profit. Anything else is a huge, huge, huge risk

wut

You don't think 3.7/169 will get a big scholarship to Vandy? Let alone WUSTL? It might depend somewhat on the x in 3.7x but those numbers should probably get like 90K at Cornell/Duke.

Wut is right, mr. hands...

The second half of your post may have some merit - idk how insular Atlanta or Nashville is.

But you are so, so wrong about someone with a 168+/3.7+ barely getting into Vandy and WUSTL. Check out mylsn.info next time you're not under a rock. Those numbers are six figure scholly numbers at those schools, if not full rides. Please don't discourage the OP. Yes, retaking can be hard, but 5 questions different and they could be going to Vandy for cheap, which I maintain is their best option.

[moneybagsphd]

It is very different. My other thread I asked what people thought about specific schools/markets. I did not get very postive feedback, so I would like some advice then on which market/schools are best for what I would want.

Big markets are the best for what you want, which is to work in a place you don't have ties to.

[Fiero85]

It is very different. My other thread I asked what people thought about specific schools/markets. I did not get very postive feedback, so I would like some advice then on which market/schools are best for what I would want.

Big markets are the best for what you want, which is to work in a place you don't have ties to.

This is also very true, OP. You'd be better off trying for a big market initially and then lateraling later on to a smaller city.

[Ramius]

OP, it really seems like what you're looking for is that elusive unicorn with "work-life balance" and you think this is the way to do it. Please proceed with caution, because that's not how the legal market works. You keep saying you want to be able to stretch a dollar further than a big city, which is fair, but shooting for "midlaw in a secondary market" just screams to me that you want to make a middle class income without having to work the hours the profession demands.

Just remember: even if you get the outcome you want, which is pretty darn unlikely from most of your options with a 163/3.7, it is extremely likely that it will be in a setting similar to the pain of the big city lawyers you're trying to avoid. I'm not trying to trash your work ethic or say you can't cut being a lawyer, but all I ask is that you don't delude yourself into thinking you'll find a $70k, 40 hour week job with low stress and that almighty middle class existence.

When you approach law school and the legal profession, just think of a few simple things and do your own cost-benefit analysis:

1. COA of law school you're looking to attend (to include cost of living, interest accrued and any opportunity cost lost)
2. Likelihood of reaching your well defined goals. This does not mean "I want to be a lawyer who wears a suit and argues in court for lots of money." This means, "I'd like to work in BIGLAW, PD/PA, government, etc." The only way to determine this is to look at LST for the schools you're looking to attend
3. Do the above make sense with the places you have ties. Ties are widely debated here, but just make sure you have good reason to be in the area where the school places the best for the long haul.

Maybe you have this all figured out and you think you're making a good decision, but considering the extreme vagueness and breadth of your question, I'm going to assume you haven't figured out any of the above three things. Until you do, don't go to law school.

[mr.hands]

Same advice as other thread, OP:

(this dude/gal has ties to Kentucky and maybe Cali for those new to the subject at hand)

I recommend retaking and going to Vandy for cheap. From there, there are a couple of smaller big cities, namely Nashville, that you could target. Charlotte, Atlanta, etc come to mind too.

After that, I recommend WUSTL for cheap if you wanna try for a new place like KC or OKC.

USC/UCLA for cheap is another option if you're ok with a western "smaller big city".

Good luck!

Wow I strongly disagree. Unless he improves by 6+ points on his retake, he won't get into these schools. If he does get that 6 point increase, he won't get much money to these places. Small scholarship in a market that he doesn't have ties to = bad idea

Assuming that he does get enough money to make this a good idea, OP doesn't have a chance at Nashville or Atlanta firms. He's not from either area, so he doesnt have an "in." He'd have to be at the very very top of his class to make up for that (which isn't statistically likely)

OP, if your ties are to Kentucky, go there and take the money. Believe me. As someone who took a 50k+ scholarship at a T14 and got an SA, the debt still scares the hell out of me. Crush at UK, work in Lexington or Louisville, and profit. Anything else is a huge, huge, huge risk

wut

You don't think 3.7/169 will get a big scholarship to Vandy? Let alone WUSTL? It might depend somewhat on the x in 3.7x but those numbers should probably get like 90K at Cornell/Duke.

Even assuming he gets his 6 point increase, it'll likely be a 75k-80k scholarship at Vandy. It's be a full ride at WUSTL

WUSTL won't take you outside of Missouri, though the scholarship is nice. Vandy would still require big law to pay off. He'd have 150k+ when repayment rolls around

30% of vandys class gets big law, mostly in TN (where OP has no ties). Those odds are terrible

For Cornell, 90k is worth it only if he wants NYC, which he's already said he's not looking towards. A Kentucky kid going to Cornell and trying to get to Atlanta or Nashville deserves what he has coming to him...

WUSTL is free but no one gives a shit about the school outside of Missouri (where he also doesn't have ties)

All of this assumes that he retakes and gets a 169

Go to UK for free.

Edit: lol at the living under a rock comment. Vandy is a terrible choice here, kid. For being one of the most expensive non T-14 schools, 30% in big law is atrocious. Vandy only carries weight in TN. Forget about the scholarship size and look at the total COA taking that scholarship into account.

EDIT 2: dude, fierowhatever, you're a 0L. You haven't taken a single class in law school, taken out law school loans, done OCI, or had any experience with any of these legal markets from the perspective as a rising 2L in OCI. You are in the exact same situation as OP. Your advice on biglaw and legal markets is likely just mimicing what you've read on TLS

[Fiero85]

You're wrong about vandy dude. Six figures with those stats. And no way vandy costs 230k sticker...Nashville is cheaper than that.

I agree the hypothetical stats won't be easy, but a 5/6 point increase is totally possible and worth pursuing. 1 question per section and you're almost there.

UK for free might be the right call in the end. Totally cool with saying that. But I think going to vandy for cheap would be miles ahead of that in opportunities, if OP is willing to try and make it happen on a retake. OP can go back to Kentucky from vandy if they have to. But Nashville or Atlanta etc are a possibility unlike if they went to UK.

Edit: sorry Mr hands but at least I'm mimicking current info about schollies. And last I checked reading other people's experiences and guidance is educational not damning or immature. It really doesn't take personal experience to figure some of this out.

It seems pretty intuitive that if OP can get a full or near full scholly to vandy (again, not easy but not a far fetched goal) that's superior to UK, especially since OP specifically stated they wanna get out of Kentucky going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you can't get with that last paragraph.

[DELG]

Yeah. 70k insurance defense doesn't mean non-biglaw hours. Might as well get paid.

If you REALLY want to live in Kansas City or whatever, to work there for 2 years prelaw to establish yourself, then go all-in on landing regional biglaw.

[mr.hands]

You're wrong about vandy dude. Six figures with those stats. And no way vandy costs 230k sticker...Nashville is cheaper than that.

I agree the hypothetical stats won't be easy, but a 5/6 point increase is totally possible and worth pursuing. 1 question per section and you're almost there.

UK for free might be the right call in the end. Totally cool with saying that. But I think going to vandy for cheap would be miles ahead of that in opportunities, if OP is willing to try and make it happen on a retake. OP can go back to Kentucky from vandy if they have to. But Nashville or Atlanta etc are a possibility unlike if they went to UK.

Non-discounted tuition is 270k. 74k per year (49 in tuition). He'd be right at the median numbers if he got a 169.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/vanderbilt/2013

OP by all means retake the LSAT. The main point is this: don't shop around markets to find the perfect job. The market isn't good enough for law students to do that successfully. Find a job you like (in a market you have good ties to) that allows you to pay off your loans. That's the ideal scenario

[mr.hands]

You're wrong about vandy dude. Six figures with those stats. And no way vandy costs 230k sticker...Nashville is cheaper than that.


It seems pretty intuitive that if OP can get a full or near full scholly to vandy (again, not easy but not a far fetched goal) that's superior to UK, especially since OP specifically stated they wanna get out of Kentucky going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you can't get with that last paragraph.

Who said anything about a full ride or near it with a 3.7 169? Those are literally their median numbers

To get their full ride, you need Harvard numbers. I went through the application process. A girl I know was choosing between the full ride and Stanford.

The bottom line is: median students don't get full rides. I have no idea where you got the idea that OP could get 150k (or close to it) at Vandy. He'll, your argument already assumes he gets a 6 point increase in his LSAT...

[Johann]

Establishing ties is not that hard if you go to law school in the area. All it takes is showing you are licensed in that state (or taking the bar there) and then saying your SO lives there also. The question is what city do you want to live in? Find a city you want to live and go from there.

[BigZuck]

You're wrong about vandy dude. Six figures with those stats. And no way vandy costs 230k sticker...Nashville is cheaper than that.


It seems pretty intuitive that if OP can get a full or near full scholly to vandy (again, not easy but not a far fetched goal) that's superior to UK, especially since OP specifically stated they wanna get out of Kentucky going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you can't get with that last paragraph.

Who said anything about a full ride or near it with a 3.7 169? Those are literally their median numbers

To get their full ride, you need Harvard numbers. I went through the application process. A girl I know was choosing between the full ride and Stanford.)

The bottom line is: median students don't get full rides. I have no idea where you got the idea that OP could get 150k (or close to it) at Vandy

Vandy's median LSAT is a 167 broseph

Also, where does it say that most of their grads who get big law get it in TN?

Where are you getting your information from?

[McAvoy]

OP -- retake and if you don't go to Vandy or UCLA/USC then make sure you at least live in whatever random ass secondary city you decide on for a few years before committing to the region with X little local school (on a full ride, of course).

It's really scary that you asked in your other thread if you should go to Wake Forest or UNC so you can get a "midlaw" job in Kansas City. I know you don't like the advice you're getting, but you've gotta understand how unrealistic you're being. It's OK to be a bit unrealistic (says the 0L moving across the country for UT), but your expectations are really, really unrealistic.

[McAvoy]

Who said anything about a full ride or near it with a 3.7 169? Those are literally their median numbers

To get their full ride, you need Harvard numbers. I went through the application process. A girl I know was choosing between the full ride and Stanford.)

The bottom line is: median students don't get full rides. I have no idea where you got the idea that OP could get 150k (or close to it) at Vandy

Vandy's median LSAT is a 167 broseph

Also, where does it say that most of their grads who get big law get it in TN?

Where are you getting your information from?

Yeah they are literally not their median numbers Handsy. I had a medicore GPA and a 168 and Vandy accepted me literally four days after I submitted my application and gave me more than a half scholarship.

ETA: They don't place many people in Tennessee biglaw, mostly because there isn't much Tennessee biglaw to speak of. Maybe just stop talking about Vandy now.

[Fiero85]

@hands, your info is a bit old. I got a near fully with numbers well south of Harvard territory. But I agree with you generally, so I won't nitpick much more. The reason I'm proposing vandy/Nashville is because that's the best school in OPs home region so he won't be going far away from his ties while still going to a "smaller big city" not in KY.

Or her ties, idk, but tired of typing their and they.

I think vandy and targeting Nashville is the right move if debt is 50k (or less) more than UK would be (so full or near full scholly). Better job prospects and going back to KY if forced is still just as doable. You seem to disagree, and that's ok. I admitted early on that I might be too optimistic about Nashville employment for Kentucky natives. And that retaking ain't easy, just beneficial. I've said my piece multiple times now so I'll leave it at that.

[mr.hands]

You're wrong about vandy dude. Six figures with those stats. And no way vandy costs 230k sticker...Nashville is cheaper than that.


It seems pretty intuitive that if OP can get a full or near full scholly to vandy (again, not easy but not a far fetched goal) that's superior to UK, especially since OP specifically stated they wanna get out of Kentucky going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you can't get with that last paragraph.

Who said anything about a full ride or near it with a 3.7 169? Those are literally their median numbers

To get their full ride, you need Harvard numbers. I went through the application process. A girl I know was choosing between the full ride and Stanford.)

The bottom line is: median students don't get full rides. I have no idea where you got the idea that OP could get 150k (or close to it) at Vandy

Vandy's median LSAT is a 167 broseph

Also, where does it say that most of their grads who get big law get it in TN?

Where are you getting your information from?

You're right. The year before last they had a 169 median. Apologies.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... tion/2013/

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... oyment.php

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... budget.php

The first two links cover geographic data. From 2007-2010 and 2013 (couldn't find 2011 and 2012. I'm doing all of this on my phone)

The second link lists the tuition (total COA is listed in the first link)

[BigZuck]

You're wrong about vandy dude. Six figures with those stats. And no way vandy costs 230k sticker...Nashville is cheaper than that.


It seems pretty intuitive that if OP can get a full or near full scholly to vandy (again, not easy but not a far fetched goal) that's superior to UK, especially since OP specifically stated they wanna get out of Kentucky going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree if you can't get with that last paragraph.

Who said anything about a full ride or near it with a 3.7 169? Those are literally their median numbers

To get their full ride, you need Harvard numbers. I went through the application process. A girl I know was choosing between the full ride and Stanford.)

The bottom line is: median students don't get full rides. I have no idea where you got the idea that OP could get 150k (or close to it) at Vandy

Vandy's median LSAT is a 167 broseph

Also, where does it say that most of their grads who get big law get it in TN?

Where are you getting your information from?

You're right. The year before last they had a 169 median. Apologies.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... tion/2013/

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... oyment.php

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... budget.php

The first two links cover geographic data. From 2007-2010 and 2013 (couldn't find 2011 and 2012. I'm doing all of this on my phone)

The second link lists the tuition (total COA is listed in the first link)

I see stuff that says lots of Vandy grads get jobs in TN. I don't see anything that says most of the big law jobs their students get is in TN.

On the second link, the median salary for peeps in the region TN is located in is like 80K. It's like 120K+ in the regions that IL, NY, and CA are located in.

I am pretty sure that NY is the state that has largest percentage of Vandy grads in big law. I bet there are some in CA, Chicago, and Atlanta big law too. I bet TN big law isn't super high on that list, but if that's assumption is wrong I will be happy to be proven wrong.

[Lacepiece23]

Pittsburgh