Penn v.s. UCLA v.s. Notre Dame Forum

[coreaves23]

Wanted to get your advice again. Submitted first deposit at Notre Dame and second deposit is due on the 6th. Was sold on ND until some WL movement...

Got a call Monday from UCLA, in off the WL -- I must tell them my decision by June 9th.

Yesterday, got a call from UPenn. She wanted to gauge my interest, etc. She said there is no more merit-based aid available. I did not qualify for need-based aid at ND, so not likely at UPenn either. She told me to call her back Friday and let her know whether or not I would attend if admitted.

At ND I have a $10,000/year scholarship, sent email to UCLA about aid and have not heard back yet, and Penn would obviously be sticker price.

Is UPenn at sticker worth it? If I get admitted to Penn off the WL and accept their offer, could I then use other WL offers (still riding UVA, Michigan, Duke, and Vandy) as leverage for aid, or is my acceptance off the WL binding?

Thanks in advance for your help!

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Edit:

New to TLS, so I didn't know what a sticky was -- sorry! Here is the info...

-The schools you are considering

Penn, UCLA, and ND (on WL at UVA, Michigan, Duke, and Vandy)

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.

~$240,000 at each school

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

Graduated from UG in December for 1/2 year WE and money. Will have that bit of savings. Getting married in July and wife will be a elementary school teacher. Looking mostly at loans.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

From Indiana. Only really have significant ties here but I would like to do sports law or litigation. Would not mind BigLaw and understand that may be a necessity with the debt I will be accruing.

-Your general career goals

To work as a sports agent or litigator.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers

Reverse splitter.

-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Once, but will be retaking this coming Monday.

[John Everyman]

Voted penn at sticker, but if you've got that, you should be getting a lot more from nd, also, what region are you dealing with here?

[Mullens]

All of these options are too expensive but Penn is definitely worth $30,000 more than ND, especially considering you would need Biglaw to pay off the debt at all of your options.

[DoveBodyWash]

acceptance off of waitlist is not binding

What's the total COA for each school? I imagine UCLA will be the most expensive since its COL will probably be the highest?

Where do you want to work? Is re-taking an option?

[Dr.Zer0]

Leverage the Penn offer for aid at UCLA and ND.

[anyriotgirl]

how did you get into penn without money anywhere else?

[ymmv]

Leverage the Penn offer for aid at UCLA and ND.

This. None of these schools are worth it at those prices. Where do you want to practice? Please read the sticky and post all the missing info.

[ymmv]

how did you get into penn without money anywhere else?

Maybe a reverse splitter? Back when I applied I got T6 money but jack shit from UCLA and other T2s, even when I tried to leverage.

[coreaves23]

John Everyman - I'm from Indiana, so I think ND got the impression that they could get me to stay close to home for close to nothing.

cusenation - Great to hear, thank you. I was not sure if WL-acceptance was binding. Yeah, COL of living in UCLA is definitely highest, however I could get resident tuition after 1L which would help a little bit. Not sure of exact COA, but all will be ~$225,000, with UCLA maybe be a little less.

I would like to work in sports law (impossible according to TLS), but I would also love litigation at a big firm, which would probably be a necessity given the debt I will accrue. I have heeded the wisdom of TLS and will be retaking this coming Monday.

Dr. Zer0 - Can I leverage without the offer in hand? Sounds like she will maybe offer Friday, but don't want mislead ND in case she doesn't. Do I just ask for an extension on the second deposit deadline for ND and more money?

anyriotgirl - Not sure to be honest, but I am a reverse splitter

[coreaves23]

how did you get into penn without money anywhere else?

Maybe a reverse splitter? Back when I applied I got T6 money but jack shit from UCLA and other T2s, even when I tried to leverage.

Yes, this is exactly my situation.

[thebobs1987]

If you are a reverse splitter, retake the LSAT in the fall and get way better options than paying sticker. Keep working and save up some money. If you want to be an agent, you should intern/work first at a sports agency or with a pro team before going to law school. Otherwise, not likely at all

If you're hell bent on going this year, then go with Penn. Sticker is terrible and you'll be forced to do big law for at least 5 years, but at least you'll get big law. UCLA and ND at those prices require big law as well, but with not nearly the same likelihood

[Dr.Zer0]

how did you get into penn without money anywhere else?

Maybe a reverse splitter? Back when I applied I got T6 money but jack shit from UCLA and other T2s, even when I tried to leverage.

Yes, this is exactly my situation.

This shouldn't happen to reverse splitters (High GPA, Low LSAT) but I can see this happening to Splitters (High LSAT, Low GPA).

If you are a reverse splitter then you should prbly retake the LSAT.

[ymmv]

If you are a reverse splitter, retake the LSAT in the fall and get way better options than paying sticker. Keep working and save up some money. If you want to be an agent, you should intern/work first at a sports agency or with a pro team before going to law school. Otherwise, not likely at all

If you're hell bent on going this year, then go with Penn. Sticker is terrible and you'll be forced to do big law for at least 5 years, but at least you'll get big law. UCLA and ND at those prices require big law as well, but with not nearly the same likelihood

This is not even close to certain. Penn's placement is excellent, but there are still a substantial number of unemployed 2Ls every year.

[thebobs1987]

If you are a reverse splitter, retake the LSAT in the fall and get way better options than paying sticker. Keep working and save up some money. If you want to be an agent, you should intern/work first at a sports agency or with a pro team before going to law school. Otherwise, not likely at all

If you're hell bent on going this year, then go with Penn. Sticker is terrible and you'll be forced to do big law for at least 5 years, but at least you'll get big law. UCLA and ND at those prices require big law as well, but with not nearly the same likelihood

This is not even close to certain. Penn's placement is excellent, but there are still a substantial number of unemployed 2Ls every year.

True, I should have said likely get big law. Retake and gain work experience is obviously TCR

[coreaves23]

If you are a reverse splitter, retake the LSAT in the fall and get way better options than paying sticker. Keep working and save up some money. If you want to be an agent, you should intern/work first at a sports agency or with a pro team before going to law school. Otherwise, not likely at all

If you're hell bent on going this year, then go with Penn. Sticker is terrible and you'll be forced to do big law for at least 5 years, but at least you'll get big law. UCLA and ND at those prices require big law as well, but with not nearly the same likelihood

I appreciate your input! Hopefully my retake this Monday will be good enough to get some money out of the WLs on which I am currently sitting. I thought about taking a year off and working, but my psych UG really only allows me to make ~$28,000. Just feel like law school, even at that price, would be worth not having to work another year for peanuts. I have an ex-travel ball coach who is a sports agent now (Greg Oden, Darren McFadden, etc.) and he said he would let me intern, but not until 1L summer.

If I can coax half scholly or so out of ND, does it then become the better choice? When I spoke with UCLA they went on about how their sports and entertainment law is #1 in the country, so I should go there. Just not sure if Penn opens up a plethora of options that the others do not.

[Dr.Zer0]

Dr. Zer0 - Can I leverage without the offer in hand? Sounds like she will maybe offer Friday, but don't want mislead ND in case she doesn't. Do I just ask for an extension on the second deposit deadline for ND and more money?

Some schools don't ask for proof. You could say that UPenn called you up and made a tacit offer. If they call bs then I would just tell UPenn you are going, get that admissions offer in writing then take it to ND and UCLA. Ask ND for the extension in the meantime, if they ask why just tell them about the UPenn offer and how you want to go check out the campus before making a commitment.

If you feel bad about deceiving schools don't. Law schools play dirty too (just look at UPenn they want you to commit to their school before they give you an offer just so they can protect their yield). Additionally I don't think you run the risk of getting your offer rescinded, but I might be wrong.

[thebobs1987]

If you are a reverse splitter, retake the LSAT in the fall and get way better options than paying sticker. Keep working and save up some money. If you want to be an agent, you should intern/work first at a sports agency or with a pro team before going to law school. Otherwise, not likely at all

If you're hell bent on going this year, then go with Penn. Sticker is terrible and you'll be forced to do big law for at least 5 years, but at least you'll get big law. UCLA and ND at those prices require big law as well, but with not nearly the same likelihood

I appreciate your input! Hopefully my retake this Monday will be good enough to get some money out of the WLs on which I am currently sitting. I thought about taking a year off and working, but my psych UG really only allows me to make ~$28,000. Just feel like law school, even at that price, would be worth not having to work another year for peanuts. I have an ex-travel ball coach who is a sports agent now (Greg Oden, Darren McFadden, etc.) and he said he would let me intern, but not until 1L summer.

If I can coax half scholly or so out of ND, does it then become the better choice? When I spoke with UCLA they went on about how their sports and entertainment law is #1 in the country, so I should go there. Just not sure if Penn opens up a plethora of options that the others do not.

Penn is definitely the safer choice in terms of getting big law and really any job. Personally I wouldn't go more than 100k in debt for either UCLA or ND. But I wouldn't pay sticker at Penn either. Good luck with your retake this Monday.

[coreaves23]

how did you get into penn without money anywhere else?

Maybe a reverse splitter? Back when I applied I got T6 money but jack shit from UCLA and other T2s, even when I tried to leverage.

Yes, this is exactly my situation.

This shouldn't happen to reverse splitters (High GPA, Low LSAT) but I can see this happening to Splitters (High LSAT, Low GPA).

If you are a reverse splitter then you should prbly retake the LSAT.

Retaking on Monday. I don't know when enough is enough though. I see retake as the answer on here so many times (and obviously I heeded that advice), but when do you just cut your losses and go? I guess I would have to hire a tutor, etc. and go for 173+ to go with my 4.0 (LSDAS 4.09), because I have self-studied up to this point (PowerScore Bibles, LSAT Trainer, and all PT's 29-70) and yet I still have maxed out at a 169 (twice).

[coreaves23]

Dr. Zer0 - Can I leverage without the offer in hand? Sounds like she will maybe offer Friday, but don't want mislead ND in case she doesn't. Do I just ask for an extension on the second deposit deadline for ND and more money?

Some schools don't ask for proof. You could say that UPenn called you up and made a tacit offer. If they call bs then I would just tell UPenn you are going, get that admissions offer in writing then take it to ND and UCLA. Ask ND for the extension in the meantime, if they ask why just tell them about the UPenn offer and how you want to go check out the campus before making a commitment.

If you feel bad about deceiving schools don't. Law schools play dirty too (just look at UPenn they want you to commit to their school before they give you an offer just so they can protect their yield). Additionally I don't think you run the risk of getting your offer rescinded, but I might be wrong.

Haha, great point. That is exactly what UCLA and Penn have done. Can't blame them, but it is interesting to be on the receiving end of one of those phone calls. I will definitely email ND tonight and just say that I received the call from UPenn -- leave the ball in their court.

[thebobs1987]

Retaking on Monday. I don't know when enough is enough though. I see retake as the answer on here so many times (and obviously I heeded that advice), but when do you just cut your losses and go? I guess I would have to hire a tutor, etc. and go for 173+ to go with my 4.0 (LSDAS 4.09), because I have self-studied up to this point (PowerScore Bibles, LSAT Trainer, and all PT's 29-70) and yet I still have maxed out at a 169 (twice).[/quote]

You have a 4.0 and a 169 and these are your offers? You should be in at several t14s and be close to a full ride at ND/UCLA. Did you apply late or do you have C&F issues?

If not, you should think about reapplying next year.

[03152016]

None of these are good options, especially since you're a reverse splitter. No question Penn is the best option of the three, but even at a top school debt-financed sticker is daunting.

[transferror]

You need to sit out. There's no reason to pay sticker at any non-HYS with a 4.0. You might be able to ED NU with your current numbers, and improving on the LSAT by a few points puts you on Harvard's radar and big $$ throughout the T14.

[coreaves23]

Retaking on Monday. I don't know when enough is enough though. I see retake as the answer on here so many times (and obviously I heeded that advice), but when do you just cut your losses and go? I guess I would have to hire a tutor, etc. and go for 173+ to go with my 4.0 (LSDAS 4.09), because I have self-studied up to this point (PowerScore Bibles, LSAT Trainer, and all PT's 29-70) and yet I still have maxed out at a 169 (twice).

You have a 4.0 and a 169 and these are your offers? You should be in at several t14s and be close to a full ride at ND/UCLA. Did you apply late or do you have C&F issues?

If not, you should think about reapplying next year.[/quote]

No, no, no -- my apologies for any confusion! My LSAT was not a 169 when I took last June, that is what I have been PTing at during my studying this time around. Fluctuating anywhere from 165-169.

You need to sit out. There's no reason to pay sticker at any non-HYS with a 4.0. You might be able to ED NU with your current numbers, and improving on the LSAT by a few points puts you on Harvard's radar and big $$ throughout the T14.

That is why I am retaking on Monday. If I don't make the jump through self-studying, should I get a tutor? Take a class?

[90convoy]

also retaking Monday in Indiana good luck!

[ymmv]

Retaking on Monday. I don't know when enough is enough though. I see retake as the answer on here so many times (and obviously I heeded that advice), but when do you just cut your losses and go? I guess I would have to hire a tutor, etc. and go for 173+ to go with my 4.0 (LSDAS 4.09), because I have self-studied up to this point (PowerScore Bibles, LSAT Trainer, and all PT's 29-70) and yet I still have maxed out at a 169 (twice).

You have a 4.0 and a 169 and these are your offers? You should be in at several t14s and be close to a full ride at ND/UCLA. Did you apply late or do you have C&F issues?

If not, you should think about reapplying next year.

No, no, no -- my apologies for any confusion! My LSAT was not a 169 when I took last June, that is what I have been PTing at during my studying this time around. Fluctuating anywhere from 165-169.

You need to sit out. There's no reason to pay sticker at any non-HYS with a 4.0. You might be able to ED NU with your current numbers, and improving on the LSAT by a few points puts you on Harvard's radar and big $$ throughout the T14.

That is why I am retaking on Monday. If I don't make the jump through self-studying, should I get a tutor? Take a class?

Yes. It's worth it for the shot at YS, probably the only schools worth paying sticker for. And if you hit 170+ you are looking at many t14 full ride offers.