Determing Elite Job Outcomes 250+ or 100+ Forum

[Princetonlaw68]

(Add fed clerkships of course). Which makes more sense for determining great job outcomes? Someone made a thread counting up 100+ firms plus fed clerk, but a lot of people around here seem to think 100+ is often not a good job at all. Should we say 250+ plus fed clerk?


The data we have available to us doesn't tell us much more than this, so we are kind of left with just choosing which of these 2 metrics is better.

Which makes more sense? Thanks!


(If you don't believe in either, then which do you think is the lesser of 2 evils?)

[DELG]

IMO $120k+/the high income hump in the bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries is a great post law school outcome. If that's "elite" idk but it seems dumb to me to leave out jobs that amount to regional biglaw.

[Princetonlaw68]

IMO $120k+/the high income hump in the bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries is a great post law school outcome. If that's "elite" idk but it seems dumb to me to leave out jobs that amount to regional biglaw.

Is that information readily available?

[09042014]

If you are looking at some of good schools that release salary data, people in 50+ firms are making good money. http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

There are not a ton of firms with 50+ lawyers that are total shitlaw. Some of course, but I'd be most are closer to biglaw than shitlaw.

[DELG]

IMO $120k+/the high income hump in the bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries is a great post law school outcome. If that's "elite" idk but it seems dumb to me to leave out jobs that amount to regional biglaw.

Is that information readily available?

What 100+ firms pay? I think close enough to all of them are 6 figures to make that a good metric, and many of them are on NALP. I have a list of the 400 largest US firms I could post if you wanted to spot-check their salaries.

If by "elite" you mean highly selective, firm size only gets you so far because boutiques like Bartlitt Beck won't count, which many Yalies/COA clerks would consider a better outcome than V5.

[Princetonlaw68]

IMO $120k+/the high income hump in the bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries is a great post law school outcome. If that's "elite" idk but it seems dumb to me to leave out jobs that amount to regional biglaw.

Is that information readily available?

What 100+ firms pay? I think close enough to all of them are 6 figures to make that a good metric, and many of them are on NALP. I have a list of the 400 largest US firms I could post if you wanted to spot-check their salaries.

If by "elite" you mean highly selective, firm size only gets you so far because boutiques like Bartlitt Beck won't count, which many Yalies/COA clerks would consider a better outcome than V5.

Don't care about selectivity. Really just talking about salaries. I guess I should have made that more clear. If it's 6 figures then it's "elite" to me.

[rad lulz]

IMO $120k+/the high income hump in the bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries is a great post law school outcome. If that's "elite" idk but it seems dumb to me to leave out jobs that amount to regional biglaw.

Is that information readily available?

What 100+ firms pay? I think close enough to all of them are 6 figures to make that a good metric, and many of them are on NALP. I have a list of the 400 largest US firms I could post if you wanted to spot-check their salaries.

If by "elite" you mean highly selective, firm size only gets you so far because boutiques like Bartlitt Beck won't count, which many Yalies/COA clerks would consider a better outcome than V5.

Don't care about selectivity. Really just talking about salaries. I guess I should have made that more clear. If it's 6 figures then it's "elite" to me.

Just do a thousands of slip and falls

Settle every case

Elite work

[Princetonlaw68]

Just do a thousands of slip and falls

Settle every case

Elite work

Who cares... Also, if it were that easy, everyone would do it.

[rad lulz]

Just do a thousands of slip and falls

Settle every case

Elite work

Who cares... Also, if it were that easy, everyone would do it.

Easy does not mean the same thing as elite

[Princetonlaw68]

Just do a thousands of slip and falls

Settle every case

Elite work

Who cares... Also, if it were that easy, everyone would do it.

Easy does not mean the same thing as elite

When I said easy I was referencing the fact that you said "just do thousands of slip and falls." I sort of felt like you were suggesting I could always just do that if I wanna make six figures.

I don't care about the meaning of the word elite. That discussion does not interest me.

[DELG]

I mean what is REALLY your question? You want to make 6 figures coming out of school? Which schools are you considering?

[Princetonlaw68]

Just trying to see what percentage of the students at different schools have high paying jobs upon graduation. Mostly curiosity. I already know where I'm going.

[jbagelboy]

For salary, 100+.

For Vault / Vault-like firms, 250+ is probably more accurate. These are not always the most "elite" firms, but they are the traditional meat of OCI.

I don't think it matters at all statistically when comparing schools. No school will have a substantially different % of 100-249 attorneys from another that would impact how you view their placement.

[DELG]

For salary, 100+.

For Vault / Vault-like firms, 250+ is probably more accurate. These are not always the most "elite" firms, but they are the traditional meat of OCI.

I don't think it matters at all statistically when comparing schools. No school will have a substantially different % of 100-249 attorneys from another that would impact how you view their placement.

I bet the difference is pretty important when comparing regional schools.

[rad lulz]

For salary, 100+.

For Vault / Vault-like firms, 250+ is probably more accurate. These are not always the most "elite" firms, but they are the traditional meat of OCI.

I don't think it matters at all statistically when comparing schools. No school will have a substantially different % of 100-249 attorneys from another that would impact how you view their placement.

I bet the difference is pretty important when comparing regional schools.

I'm sure there's a graph floating around somewhere

[DELG]

For salary, 100+.

For Vault / Vault-like firms, 250+ is probably more accurate. These are not always the most "elite" firms, but they are the traditional meat of OCI.

I don't think it matters at all statistically when comparing schools. No school will have a substantially different % of 100-249 attorneys from another that would impact how you view their placement.

I bet the difference is pretty important when comparing regional schools.

I'm sure there's a graph floating around somewhere

I don't really know I was just thinking like

UWash v Seattle U

I doubt either place well into 250+ but UWash does a lot better for 100+

Again I don't really know that's just my instinct

[jbagelboy]

For salary, 100+.

For Vault / Vault-like firms, 250+ is probably more accurate. These are not always the most "elite" firms, but they are the traditional meat of OCI.

I don't think it matters at all statistically when comparing schools. No school will have a substantially different % of 100-249 attorneys from another that would impact how you view their placement.

I bet the difference is pretty important when comparing regional schools.

I'm sure there's a graph floating around somewhere

I don't really know I was just thinking like

UWash v Seattle U

I doubt either place well into 250+ but UWash does a lot better for 100+

Again I don't really know that's just my instinct

Right, I meant among schools with overall 100+ placement, not between stronger and weaker regionals where obviously 100+ will show a large difference.

Like, you won't distinguish between Cornell and Northwestern, or UCLA and Vanderbilt, based on 100-249 vis a vis all 100+

[DELG]

I really don't get what you're saying

[rayiner]

There's 107 offices (almost as many firms) on NALP that are 100-200 attorneys. Removing firms like Munger and a couple of IP boutiques leaves 100. All but 9 pay six figures, and almost all the rest pay $90k plus, usually in a very cheap city. E.g. $92k in Harrisburg, PA.

The punchline is that of the firms that reported data, which is most of them, together they hired 316 entry-level attorneys in 2013, and had 329 summer associates that year.

[Princetonlaw68]

Actually, I did the math a while back and I noticed that when comparing T14s to the highest ranked non t14 for 2013 (as far as big law + fed clerk), there was a sizable difference in the percentage of <250 Law firms among the students that landed jobs at 101+ firms. (The school was Vandy). Here are the numbers:


Vandy:


101-250: 17

251-500: 15

501+: 42

17/(17+15+42) = 23%

GULC (Worst Overall Stats of the T14):

101-250: 22

251-500: 35

501+: 210

22/(22+35+210) = 8.2%


Michigan: (Random T14)

101-250: 17 (excluded the 1 part timer)

251-500: 32

501+: 148

17/(17+32+148) = 8.6%


Vandy's big law placement that was made up of students at firms with less than 250 lawyers was about 3X that of the most shit talked T14s.



(This was for you Jbagelboy. Forgot to quote you.)

[Nelson]

GULC's biggest market = Washington DC
Vandy's biggest market = Tennessee.

This thread is dumb. Most truly "elite" outcomes are at firms with less than 250 lawyers, many of those "elite" outcomes are at firms less than 100. Firm size matters only to the extent that it's a blunt proxy for "job that lets you pay off your loans." For that purpose, there's no difference between 100+ and 250+.

[Princetonlaw68]

Actually, I did the math a while back and I noticed that when comparing T14s to the highest ranked non t14 for 2013 (as far as big law + fed clerk), there was a sizable difference in the percentage of <250 Law firms among the students that landed jobs at 101+ firms. (The school was Vandy). Here are the numbers:


Vandy:


101-250: 17

251-500: 15

501+: 42

17/(17+15+42) = 23%

GULC (Worst Overall Stats of the T14):

101-250: 22

251-500: 35

501+: 210

22/(22+35+210) = 8.2%


Michigan: (Random T14)

101-250: 17 (excluded the 1 part timer)

251-500: 32

501+: 148

17/(17+32+148) = 8.6%


Vandy's big law placement that was made up of students at firms with less than 250 lawyers was about 3X that of the most shit talked T14s.



(This was for you Jbagelboy. Forgot to quote you.)

Even more surprising is that UT's percentage of big law that's made up of <250 is on par with the T14s. I would've thought it would be more on par with Vandy, but it wasn't.

Here are the numbers for UT:

101-250: 12

251-500: 23

501+: 91


12/(12+23+91) = 9.5%

[Princetonlaw68]

GULC's biggest market = Washington DC
Vandy's biggest market = Tennessee.

This thread is dumb. Most truly "elite" outcomes are at firms with less than 250 lawyers, many of those "elite" outcomes are at firms less than 100. Firm size matters only to the extent that it's a blunt proxy for "job that lets you pay off your loans." For that purpose, there's no difference between 100+ and 250+.

Yes, I had that thought as well. However, I just find it interesting that UT, which is also a southern school, still looks similar to the T14s.



(Nothing against Vandy. I believe you guys, but I was addressing what Jbagelboy was saying.)

[Nelson]

GULC's biggest market = Washington DC
Vandy's biggest market = Tennessee.

This thread is dumb. Most truly "elite" outcomes are at firms with less than 250 lawyers, many of those "elite" outcomes are at firms less than 100. Firm size matters only to the extent that it's a blunt proxy for "job that lets you pay off your loans." For that purpose, there's no difference between 100+ and 250+.

Yes, I had that thought as well. However, I just find it interesting that UT, which is also a southern school, still looks similar to the T14s.

Texas has loads of national firms. Tennessee does not. Firm size is just a proxy for "how many offices does this firm have." It's not a metric with any more meaning than that.

[rad lulz]

Outside of atl and tx the lions share of southern firms are regional