Northwestern at sticker or Cornell w/ 10K a year? Forum

[lemons]

-Schools I am considering: Northwestern at sticker and Cornell with 30K over 3 years
-Total COA: roughly 33K difference when you take into account interest (about a 12.5% difference)
-How I will be financing my COA: loans loans and more loans! I have no savings and my parents cannot help out.
-Where I am from and where I want to work. Significant ties: California native. I went to undergraduate in Ohio. I think that I ultimately want to work in California but I am open to basically anywhere except New York. Both my siblings are in Chicago for their school, so it would be nice to move to a city where I have connections. I've also never lived in a city, unless you count the 4 months I was in London studying abroad (and I didn't particularly like living in London after my first month there).
-General career goals: I want to clerk when I graduate and then do PI/government work (AUSA/DA)
-LSAT/GPA numbers: 163, 3.5X MA URM, K-JD, no interview at either NU or Cornell, so yeah, I know I am lucky to have gotten in at all.
-How many times I have taken the LSAT: twice

A few more things: it is not an option for me to wait this cycle out. My undergraduate degree is useless and I've been ungainfully unemployed since I graduated in December. I am waitlisted at 12 schools, only 3 of which I am staying on, all of which I would be super comfortable attending at sticker (not sure if this is relevant). I'm not sure NU is a great option at sticker but I'm not sure Cornell will help me outside of New York, where I really don't want to end up.

I think I will be happier in Chicago, just because I have family there, but I got a really bad vibe off of a couple of current students, one who said to me (knowing that I am K-JD) that "K-JDs are little shits who think they are better than everyone else but when OCI happens they realize we are all the same". Might have been an isolated incident of K-JD resentment but it totally gave me a bad vibe.

Ultimately, I want to go to a school where I will be happy and where I will have a good shot at getting a good PI job. I'm also vacillating on whether the 33K difference is big enough to actually factor into my decision.
Any advice in making this decision would be appreciated!

[twenty]

Unfortunately, neither of these options are great for what you want to do. OKAY WAIT. Before you roll your eyes and go "gtfo, these are the only options I have," hear me out. You're a K-JD right now, so if you're 22-23, that means by the time you're done paying off your loans in the best possible scenario for you, you'll be 35-36. Seeing as both NU and Cornell's LRAPs are terrible, you'll invariably end up on straight-up PAYE very quickly. Cook County's ADA salary is around 70k, and unlike most DA offices, does not go much higher than that. The offices in upstate New York are worse.

Now, you say, "well shit, I'd give my right middle finger to make 70k/year... how about to you, since you're saying sit out and retake!" Keep in mind that 13 years ago, you were a kid on the playground, and that was a long-ass time ago. By committing today to taking out loans that, at a minimum, will keep you in a profession that's notorious for burning people out, you lock yourself into the DA's office in the best case scenario.

You say you invariably want to end up in California, but frankly, you'll be lucky to end up in Chicago. It is immensely difficult to get into local government/PI without volunteering as much as possible in the location you want to be in... which for you, means a 4-hour plane commute just to get to your target office. To be honest, you're committing to live in a city for over a decade without ever having really lived in a city, except the one city you've lived in you haven't liked very much. Honestly, I would probably even attend UCLA/USC at sticker over Northwestern or Cornell.

You say your undergrad degree is worthless -- okay, fair enough, but your GPA isn't, especially for a URM. Worst case scenario to sitting out a year, you retake in October, fuck it up, and ED to somewhere better than this cycle that you would rather go to at sticker. Pouring coffees at Starbucks for a year isn't great by any stretch, but to me, that sounds preferable to committing yourself to something this big.

edit> THAT SAID, I'm not suggesting for a second that you will unquestioningly be immensely unhappy and hate your life indefinitely. The ADAs I know are some of the happiest attorneys I've met (though incidentally, none of them have significant law school debt, and can quit at any time). All that's definitely not to say that you can't completely ignore everything I've said, come back 7-10 years from now, and say, "Goddamn, I'm glad I didn't listen to that twenty prick." Could easily happen. But that could easily not happen too, and there's a reason you're not going to have a lot of practicing attorneys supporting NU/Cornell at sticker ITT.

[Winston1984]

Pretty much agree with Twenty here. You have to sit out and retake. If you were cool with NY, Cornell may be an option (still too much imo). You can find a shit job and work while studying for your retake. You never know, you may actually be able to find a decent entry level position. I know it's frustrating looking for work for months and not finding anything, but you can't take on this kind of debt because you are striking out.

[politibro44]

Twenty is on point. Retake and shoot for schools were you want to land. You could also get a year of PI volunteering while you take a year off. If you want to work in Cali then go to Berk and work as an ADA in Alameda or SF. They pay $$$.

[lemons]

thanks for all of your opinions! I probably should have known that the responses I would get would be the typical TLS wisdom of retaking haha but I still felt compelled to ask and you all did provide some food for thought.

I definitely won't be retaking/reapplying next cycle. if it means that i have to sell my soul to biglaw for a few years to pay off debt, then so be it. (i'm being just a tiny bit facetious, so i hope no one gets offended)

if anyone else has any opinions to add besides that I should sit out the cycle, I'm still all ears

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Put "neither" in your poll and that will probably win. That's a crazy huge amount of debt.

[lemons]

Put "neither" in your poll and that will probably win. That's a crazy huge amount of debt.

haha i agree it would win but it's not an option so... yeah

[rad lulz]

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[rad lulz]

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[lemons]

thanks for all of your opinions! I probably should have known that the responses I would get would be the typical TLS wisdom of retaking haha but I still felt compelled to ask and you all did provide some food for thought.

I definitely won't be retaking/reapplying next cycle. if it means that i have to sell my soul to biglaw for a few years to pay off debt, then so be it. (i'm being just a tiny bit facetious, so i hope no one gets offended)

if anyone else has any opinions to add besides that I should sit out the cycle, I'm still all ears

Lol @ "a few years" you're going to be over $250k in debt are you mathematically challenged, that's asinine

Retake the LSAT or go someplace cheaper where you have a full ride

lol get a life dude

[rad lulz]

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[yadiermolina]

either one could potentially be the worst decision you ever make in your life, i.e. 3k/month loan payment every year FOR TEN YEARS

[rad lulz]

either one could potentially be the worst decision you ever make in your life, i.e. 3k/month loan payment every year FOR TEN YEARS

If you're lucky

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

thanks for all of your opinions! I probably should have known that the responses I would get would be the typical TLS wisdom of retaking haha but I still felt compelled to ask and you all did provide some food for thought.

I definitely won't be retaking/reapplying next cycle. if it means that i have to sell my soul to biglaw for a few years to pay off debt, then so be it. (i'm being just a tiny bit facetious, so i hope no one gets offended)

if anyone else has any opinions to add besides that I should sit out the cycle, I'm still all ears

Lol @ "a few years" you're going to be over $250k in debt are you mathematically challenged, that's asinine

Retake the LSAT or go someplace cheaper where you have a full ride

A lot of people (including me) have turned down better t14 offers than this to go full ride to a regional.

There only three good options for you:
1 retake
2 full ride at a regional
3 pursue another career besides law

[twenty]

Okay, so knowing that this is a terrible idea that could be remedied by retaking, or at least reapplying to regionals that would give you lots of money, Northwestern > Cornell. Everyone and their cousin will be gunning for the DA's office in Chicago, so consider the collar counties instead. Starting your 1L year, volunteer at Cook County's DA office. This (0L) summer, ask around local DA offices in California/Ohio/wherever you are and try and volunteer time there as well. Every minute spent in law school should be figuring out how to get into a local target DA office.

[SteelPenguin]

Retake >>>>>>>>>> NU > Cornell (only because of your hatred of NYC)

You CANNOT expect CA out of either of these schools.
You CANNOT expect a federal clerkship out of either of these schools (or out of most of the T14, for that matter).
You CANNOT use biglaw as a backup plan. OCI happens way too early for that, and biglaw isn't guaranteed even if it's your goal.
Both schools have relatively weak PI LRAP from my understanding.
If you were shooting for biglaw, you MIGHT be able to justify one of these at sticker, but this sounds like a disaster.


Reapply and either ED to a school with better LRAP or attend a regional with a large scholly.

Of course, Twenty already said most of this and much more, and you obviously know this is the responsible decision, but there's no way you could survive in a low-paying job for an entire year without much or any disposable income. For what it's worth, retaking has probably been the best decision many TLSers have ever made, myself included.

[ManoftheHour]

You want to do PI/Government work?

Retake the LSAT or go someplace cheaper where you have a full ride

TITCR

I don't get how these two are the two options you're weighing. If you got into these two schools, I'm sure you got a full ride at a strong regional (hopefully in the region you want to practice).

[ManoftheHour]

You should read this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=220431

How to get into PI law

You will hear this over and over again. Your grades do not matter. Your school ranking on USNWR does not matter. This is the hardest part for people to overcome -- all that work you did on the LSAT, all that debt you took out to go to a T14 school, and all those sleepless nights you put in during 1L to get decent grades are now wasted. The good news is, if you're a 0L, your grades/law school ranking/etc. don't really matter! Obviously you can't get Cs at a TTTT and expect to go work for the SEC, but there is very, very little difference between a A- average student at Cornell and a B student at Mercer in terms of PI hiring.

The biggest thing you have to do to get into PI law is hustle.

You must never stop hustling. Spend your last free summer working as a volunteer in an area related to the PI field you want to work in. Spend your 1L year (yes, 1L year) volunteering. Spend your 1L summer volunteering. Spend the winter break between semesters... you get it. A cooperative career services office is critical in this process.

If you want to work for the government, veteran's status helps tremendously*. Three or more years of prior full-time experience will also help you a lot.** If you want to work for a PI organization, everyone in the office should know your name, your dog's birthday, and your favorite color. I can not stress this enough. People complain about how insanely slow PI hiring is, but if you know people on the inside that can speak to your work product and dedication, it's like putting metaphorical rockets on a snail.

The federal government puts up 1-week long postings for jobs in order to meet administrative requirements, but they definitely already have someone in mind. Be that someone.

[norkanite]

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[McAvoy]

Going to either in you situation would be just terrible decisions.

If you don't want to retake, I'd think USC should have given you close to a full ride. Be a Barista for a year and go there.

If you will retake and improve, UCLA quickly becomes a financially viable option.

You've got a golden ticket here as a URM with a 3.5 GPA.

[star fox]

OP, three points on my lsat brought me from WL -> denied from northwestern to a 165K total scholarship.

[thisiswater]

Put "neither" in your poll and that will probably win. That's a crazy huge amount of debt.

haha i agree it would win but it's not an option so... yeah

Of course it's an option. How hard have you looked for a job? Have you put your resume in the hands of every single staffing agency/recruiter in your area?

Both of these options are bad for your goals

[bk1]

It seems to me that a big reason you want to go now is because you haven't been able to find a single job in 6 months.

What makes you think you'll be better off coming out of law school? If you can't even get any job with your undergrad degree taking on 250k debt would be an insane risk.

[cron1834]

It seems to me that a big reason you want to go now is because you haven't been able to find a single job in 6 months.

What makes you think you'll be better off coming out of law school? If you can't even get any job with your undergrad degree taking on 250k debt would be an insane risk.

This is pretty compelling. OP's LR skills don't seem so hot, either, based on this thread.

[rickgrimes69]

Man there's nothing left for me to say, Twenty and Rad pretty much covered it.

OP don't write off the advice in this thread as "lol TLS." You're really young and you don't seem to understand the implications of $300k in debt. If you were biglaw or bust that might be one thing, but you're not, and you don't seem to understand that working biglaw for "a few years" won't even put a dent in the insane amount of debt you're taking on. Also, taking out sticker debt without being open to working in NYC is just stupid. Finally, your goal to work as an AUSA/DA in CA? You can kiss that dream goodbye, as it's not gonna happen from either school.

You sure you want to do this? It sounds like you just don't know what else to do with yourself, and that's not a good reason to do something like this.