UCLA ($80k) vs UPenn ($140k) PI Forum

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

Hi, TSL! I need to make a decision early next week about UCLA vs UPenn. Retake/wait out isn't an option in this situation.

UCLA CoA: $80k

UPenn CoA: $140k

I have $90k from savings/family to put towards either school. UCLA has given me a $60k scholarship and I qualify for in-state tuition after 1L (already factored in). No funding from UPenn, but I can live with extremely generous relatives rent-free, meals included (already factored)- although I'm nervous that if I felt I had to get my own place after 1L, I'd go another $30k in debt.

I'm going to be PI, DA/DOJ office if at all possible- it's something I've been working on for years. So with LRAP and IBR, I'll pay almost identical amounts of loan repayment for either school. My GPA (4 years old) was 3.4, my LSAT was 170, and I took the LSAT once.

Honestly, I don't love Philadelphia. I was born and raised there, but it's not my favorite city. I was very excited about UCLA- loved my visit, loved the PI office, loved LA. I've heard UPenn is dominated by BigLaw, PI gets lost in the shuffle, school rank isn't as important for PI, I'd rather not have +$100k debt over my head even if I'm PI for life... but UPenn is obviously 10 rankings higher, so am I just deluding myself about UCLA? I'm grateful for some outside perspective here, especially from alumns of either school.

[WokeUpInACar]

Hi, TSL! I need to make a decision early next week about UCLA vs UPenn. Retake/wait out isn't an option in this situation.

UCLA CoA: $80k

UPenn CoA: $140k

I have $90k from savings/family to put towards either school. UCLA has given me a $60k scholarship and I qualify for in-state tuition after 1L (already factored in). No funding from UPenn, but I can live with extremely generous relatives rent-free, meals included (already factored)- although I'm nervous that if I felt I had to get my own place after 1L, I'd go another $30k in debt.

In Philly, I have a close relative who is a senior partner at a mid-size firm, another who is in the DOJ. I have good contacts in the DAs office there (starting salary... $50,000). I've only been to LA once, but a close family friend is a senior partner in a stable BigLaw.

I'm going to be PI, DA/DOJ office if at all possible- it's something I've been working on for years. So with LRAP and IBR, I'll pay almost identical amounts of loan repayment for either school. My GPA (4 years old) was 3.4, my LSAT was 170, and I took the LSAT once.

Honestly, I don't love Philadelphia. I was born and raised there, but it's not my favorite city. I was very excited about UCLA- loved my visit, loved the PI office, loved LA. I've heard UPenn is dominated by BigLaw, PI gets lost in the shuffle, school rank isn't as important for PI, I'd rather not have +$100k debt over my head even if I'm PI for life... but UPenn is obviously 10 rankings higher, so am I just deluding myself about UCLA? I'm grateful for some outside perspective here, especially from alumns of either school.

Penn. This is not close at all. UCLA limits your geographic mobility (and you have no ties there) while Penn doesn't.

[ymmv]

Hi, TSL! I need to make a decision early next week about UCLA vs UPenn. Retake/wait out isn't an option in this situation.

UCLA CoA: $80k

UPenn CoA: $140k

I have $90k from savings/family to put towards either school. UCLA has given me a $60k scholarship and I qualify for in-state tuition after 1L (already factored in). No funding from UPenn, but I can live with extremely generous relatives rent-free, meals included (already factored)- although I'm nervous that if I felt I had to get my own place after 1L, I'd go another $30k in debt.

In Philly, I have a close relative who is a senior partner at a mid-size firm, another who is in the DOJ. I have good contacts in the DAs office there (starting salary... $50,000). I've only been to LA once, but a close family friend is a senior partner in a stable BigLaw.

I'm going to be PI, DA/DOJ office if at all possible- it's something I've been working on for years. So with LRAP and IBR, I'll pay almost identical amounts of loan repayment for either school. My GPA (4 years old) was 3.4, my LSAT was 170, and I took the LSAT once.

Honestly, I don't love Philadelphia. I was born and raised there, but it's not my favorite city. I was very excited about UCLA- loved my visit, loved the PI office, loved LA. I've heard UPenn is dominated by BigLaw, PI gets lost in the shuffle, school rank isn't as important for PI, I'd rather not have +$100k debt over my head even if I'm PI for life... but UPenn is obviously 10 rankings higher, so am I just deluding myself about UCLA? I'm grateful for some outside perspective here, especially from alumns of either school.

Copypasta from my recent response to a question about Penn PI on the Ask Penn thread:

There seems to be plenty of support for the PI-minded, even if they do make up a smaller percentage of the student body than at, e.g., NYU. Obviously that career path tends to be less guided than the biglaw OCI route, but TPIC (Toll Public Interest Center) are at least as helpful as CP&P, probably more so, and Penn's been building a much stronger alumni network in government and PI areas over the past couple decades. There's also an extremely heavy emphasis on pro bono here, and I know a number of people who have ultimately found their jobs through those activities. There are a TON of PI-oriented networking events around campus, which can mean plenty of opportunities to learn about practice area options early on in much the same way biglaw people can through firm events, except that PI people will rely much more heavily on those connections leading to interviews and employment.

That said, the PI/gov market is reputed to be incredibly competitive thanks in part to all the hiring freezes, and my purely subjective assessment is that the few students at Penn who don't graduate with jobs tend to be a mix of PI folks and would-be-biglaw folks who completely struck out at grades and/or OCI. But it's a very small number of students in that boat, and it's difficult to assess the prospects of those who do graduate with PI jobs since they're going to so many eclectic areas of practice.

To see some other responses: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... start=2950

Also, obligatory:
I know you insist "retake/wait out isn't an option," but dude, in either case that COA is WAY too high if you plan to go straight into PI. Like, suicidally high. If you got into Penn, you also (I assume) got some full ride offers from regional T1s. Those would be your best options if you want to work at a DA's office. Hell, in Philly alone, Temple w/ $$$ is an infinitely better choice for DA/PD gunners than is Penn. That's where most of the local PI folks come from anyway.

Anyway, out of the two choices you present, I suppose I would go with Penn because of LRAP and your local connections, which will be instrumental in getting a job here in Philly. But LRAP is a risky lifeline to rely on, and given your career goals I can't imagine risking $80k or $140k in debt without planning on spending a few years in biglaw before transitioning to PI. You can get plenty of pro bono experience there and wind up being a more attractive candidate for DOJ-type jobs after a couple years of practice and loan repayment. Or so I hear.

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

Also, obligatory:
I know you insist "retake/wait out isn't an option," but dude, in either case that COA is WAY too high if you plan to go straight into PI. Like, suicidally high. If you got into Penn, you also (I assume) got some full ride offers from regional T1s. Those would be your best options if you want to work at a DA's office. Hell, in Philly alone, Temple w/ $$$ is an infinitely better choice for DA/PD gunners than is Penn. That's where most of the local PI folks come from anyway.

Anyway, out of the two choices you present, I suppose I would go with Penn because of LRAP and your local connections, which will be instrumental in getting a job here in Philly. But LRAP is a risky lifeline to rely on, and given your career goals I can't imagine risking $80k or $140k in debt without planning on spending a few years in biglaw before transitioning to PI. You can get plenty of pro bono experience there and wind up being a more attractive candidate for DOJ-type jobs after a couple years of practice and loan repayment. Or so I hear.

The thing is, the idea of living/working Philly for the rest of my life, or even another decade of my life, makes me unhappy. Also, I've worked in DAs offices and BigLaw (big law more extensively- summer jobs for years), and BigLaw is not for me.

I really appreciate the links/info, ymmv, and I'll be reading them closely. Thanks much.

[metroidbum]

Did you factor in the 90k savings to those COA numbers?

If you didn't, then Penn for 50k seems like an easy decision.

[ymmv]

The thing is, the idea of living/working Philly for the rest of my life, or even another decade of my life, makes me unhappy.

Out of curiosity, did you grow up in the suburbs, or maybe North/West Philly? I only ask because I've lived in a lot of cities, and I love the "Philly" that is Center/Old/University City and (some of) South Philly. I'm surprised someone could dislike the town so much, but I guess it's also different when you've grown up in a place. Though I'm sure the oceans of poverty and crime surrounding the affluent zone could be a source of eventual depression too.

[twenty]

I vote for UCLA. If you don't like Philly and you're a PI gunner (assuming you have absolutely no interest in biglaw), 80k is a really manageable number even if wacky stuff happens to PAYE/PSLF. If you're gunning for a DA's office, don't gun for Los Angeles County unless you're a veteran.

[Big Dog]

If you got into Penn, you should be receiving a LOT more money from UCLA. Don't sell yourself short.

[ymmv]

If you got into Penn, you should be receiving a LOT more money from UCLA. Don't sell yourself short.

This is not necessarily true at all. I got a substantial package from Penn but next to nothing from UCLA. Though this might be my fault for actually and honestly listing all the schools I was applying to on the "which other schools" portion of the LSAC applications. Maybe T1s can smell when they are the fallback options?

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

The thing is, the idea of living/working Philly for the rest of my life, or even another decade of my life, makes me unhappy.

Out of curiosity, did you grow up in the suburbs, or maybe North/West Philly? I only ask because I've lived in a lot of cities, and I love the "Philly" that is Center/Old/University City and (some of) South Philly. I'm surprised someone could dislike the town so much, but I guess it's also different when you've grown up in a place. Though I'm sure the oceans of poverty and crime surrounding the affluent zone could be a source of eventual depression too.

Poverty and crime don't bother me at all (heck, knowing so many crime victims/seeing communities gutted by rampant crime is what convinced me that I have to do prosecution). Philly has some major problems with its justice system, to which I've already been exposed- I know every city does. I also hate the weather and couldn't care less about the sports culture. Worried that living with relatives (which is the major savings in going to Penn) will leave me with no social life at all.

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

If you got into Penn, you should be receiving a LOT more money from UCLA. Don't sell yourself short.

I've been negotiating with UCLA for months now (leveraging other scholarships, etc), but they've told me they're overcommitted on scholarship money. I was kinda surprised- I know they gave at least one other 0L a $90k scholarship.

[ymmv]

Worried that living with relatives (which is the major savings in going to Penn) will leave me with no social life at all- I could never, ever have friends over and would have to do 99% of studying in the law library.

I wouldn't worry so much about this. 95% of Penn social life takes place at bars or school events; it's not like undergrad where people chill at each others homes all the time to avoid arrest for underage drinking. I mean, yeah, there are occasional house parties, but it's not like you'll be under any obligation to host them.
What I would really be worried about is surviving all three years without triggering alcoholism, given the ubiquity of free drinks and the constant pressure to network when seeking PI employment.

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

Did you factor in the 90k savings to those COA numbers?

If you didn't, then Penn for 50k seems like an easy decision.

Unfortunately, the $90k is already factored. I'm hoping to raise that number a bit ($10-20k), but neither school will be low-cost.

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

I wouldn't worry so much about this. 95% of Penn social life takes place at bars or school events; it's not like undergrad where people chill at each others homes all the time to avoid arrest for underage drinking. I mean, yeah, there are occasional house parties, but it's not like you'll be under any obligation to host them.

I know, it's more that I literally (not figuratively) cannot have a single friend over (small place, other working adults) while I live there, which is three years to get maximum value.

[Otunga]

If you're set on PI, I wouldn't choose Penn for that debt. And UCLA is questionable since 80k is still significant at a non-t14, its placement is bad relative to Penn, and most of the UCLA jobs are around LA, somewhere you seem to be okay with, but if you want to leave it, your geographic flexibility is probably limited.

Are you willing to retake? Even so, I'm not sure how much utility there is with your numbers, though.

How's Penn's LRAP?

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

If you're set on PI, I wouldn't choose Penn for that debt. And UCLA is questionable since 80k is still significant at a non-t14, its placement is bad relative to Penn, and most of the UCLA jobs are around LA, somewhere you seem to be okay with, but if you want to leave it, your geographic flexibility is probably limited.

Are you willing to retake? Even so, I'm not sure how much utility there is with your numbers, though.

How's Penn's LRAP?

Also, I added $10k to each CoA estimate to be on the safe side. With Penn, I'd be taking out loans for tuition- which is obviously immutable. With UCLA, tuition is paid, and loans are for living expenses- which I can keep to an absolute minimum (theoretically).

UCLA's LRAP starts at $60k contributions, with 35% of amount over that; UPenn's starts at $48k, graduated over that prett quickly. So if I made $55k my first year, I'd pay $0 with UCLA, $1800 with Penn. Hmm.

[Otunga]

If you're set on PI, I wouldn't choose Penn for that debt. And UCLA is questionable since 80k is still significant at a non-t14, its placement is bad relative to Penn, and most of the UCLA jobs are around LA, somewhere you seem to be okay with, but if you want to leave it, your geographic flexibility is probably limited.

Are you willing to retake? Even so, I'm not sure how much utility there is with your numbers, though.

How's Penn's LRAP?

I'm not retaking- been there, done that, paid all the $&^ing fees. Plus I'm not 22; I can't wait any longer if this is what I want in life (unless I wait 20 years).

Also, I added $10k to each CoA estimate to be on the safe side. With Penn, I'd be taking out loans for tuition- which is obviously immutable. With UCLA, tuition is paid, and loans are for living expenses- which I can keep to an absolute minimum (theoretically).

UCLA's LRAP starts at $60k contributions, with 35% of amount over that; UPenn's starts at $48k, graduated over that prett quickly. So if I made $55k my first year, I'd pay $0 with UCLA, $1800 with Penn. Hmm.

Retaking wouldn't make a massive difference in your cycle as a splitter, but it could help for scholarships. Not sure though.

UCLA has a better LRAP than Penn? If so, that would tilt the scales to UCLA for me, combined with the less debt and lack of desire for PA.

[samoby]

If you're set on PI, I wouldn't choose Penn for that debt. And UCLA is questionable since 80k is still significant at a non-t14, its placement is bad relative to Penn, and most of the UCLA jobs are around LA, somewhere you seem to be okay with, but if you want to leave it, your geographic flexibility is probably limited.

Are you willing to retake? Even so, I'm not sure how much utility there is with your numbers, though.

How's Penn's LRAP?

I'm not retaking- been there, done that, paid all the $&^ing fees. Plus I'm not 22; I can't wait any longer if this is what I want in life (unless I wait 20 years).

Also, I added $10k to each CoA estimate to be on the safe side. With Penn, I'd be taking out loans for tuition- which is obviously immutable. With UCLA, tuition is paid, and loans are for living expenses- which I can keep to an absolute minimum (theoretically).

UCLA's LRAP starts at $60k contributions, with 35% of amount over that; UPenn's starts at $48k, graduated over that prett quickly. So if I made $55k my first year, I'd pay $0 with UCLA, $1800 with Penn. Hmm.

I think you're looking at the old LRAP for Penn (for earlier graduates). The new one looks better.

https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/toll- ... ayment.php

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

I think you're looking at the old LRAP for Penn (for earlier graduates). The new one looks better.

https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/toll- ... ayment.php

The eligibility document I downloaded is as of July 2013. As far as I'm reading TolLRAP II expands eligibility, but doesn't change repayment amounts much. Can you tell me what you're seeing different?

[twenty]

Yeah, you're looking at the wrong thing. Penn's LRAP requires no contribution up to 80k, and even after 80k, will continue subsidizing your PAYE payments up to 100k salary. Penn's LRAP is definitely one of the top five in the country, on the same tier with NYU, GULC, Chicago and Berkeley.

edit> That said, UCLA's is really good too, just not as good.

[Cheryl_QueenofMars]

Yeah, you're looking at the wrong thing. Penn's LRAP requires no contribution up to 80k, and even after 80k, will continue subsidizing your PAYE payments up to 100k salary. Penn's LRAP is definitely one of the top five in the country, on the same tier with NYU, GULC, Chicago and Berkeley.

edit> That said, UCLA's is really good too, just not as good.

No, I'm not seeing an income minimum of $80k anywhere. If you can link me to the document, please do. The eligibility doc states: After three years in TolLRAP II, you're eligible for TolLRAP Plus. Which is an additional amount of loan repayment for years 4-10, covering the same amounts for all incomes under $80k and another amount for incomes $80-100k.

Page 6 of the TolLRAP Guidelines Effective July 2013: "Vested participants will automatically become participants in the TolLRAP Plus program, a program which provides additional awards based on the TolLRAP Plus Schedule. These awards are in addition to TolLRAP II IBR-Based Awards".

UPenn loan repayment under TolLRAP II starts at $48,000 according to the same document.

Edited to add, from the document linked:
"Q: Is there an income cap?
A: For TolLRAP II, income eligibility is capped at $100,000. In addition, if you make between $80,000 and $100,000, you are eligible for a TolLRAP Plus Award, but not for a TolLRAP Award. " So, dudes, you're not eligible for Penn's TolLRAP II and TolLRAP Plus if you make $80k or more.

[twenty]

Yeah, you're looking at the wrong thing. Penn's LRAP requires no contribution up to 80k, and even after 80k, will continue subsidizing your PAYE payments up to 100k salary. Penn's LRAP is definitely one of the top five in the country, on the same tier with NYU, GULC, Chicago and Berkeley.

edit> That said, UCLA's is really good too, just not as good.

No, I'm not seeing an income minimum of $80k anywhere. If you can link me to the document, please do. The eligibility doc states: After three years in TolLRAP II, you're eligible for TolLRAP Plus. Which is an additional amount of loan repayment for years 4-10, covering the same amounts for all incomes under $80k and another amount for incomes $80-100k.

Page 6 of the TolLRAP Guidelines Effective July 2013: "Vested participants will automatically become participants in the TolLRAP Plus program, a program which provides additional awards based on the TolLRAP Plus Schedule. These awards are in addition to TolLRAP II IBR-Based Awards".

UPenn loan repayment under TolLRAP II starts at $48,000 according to the same document.

Edited to add, from the document linked:
"Q: Is there an income cap?
A: For TolLRAP II, income eligibility is capped at $100,000. In addition, if you make between $80,000 and $100,000, you are eligible for a TolLRAP Plus Award, but not for a TolLRAP Award. " So, dudes, you're not eligible for Penn's TolLRAP II and TolLRAP Plus if you make $80k or more.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding how Penn's LRAP works. Don't get snappy with me.

Look to where it explicitly says:

"TolLRAP awards will cover the cost of your loan payments if you are in IBR."

That means that Penn's LRAP will cover ALL your IBR payment if you're making 80k or less. If you are making between 80k-100k, Penn will only offset your IBR/PAYE payment with a TolLRAP Plus award. If you're making over 100k, you're on your own (you'll probably on IBR/PAYE).

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the idea that I'm saying you have to make 80k minimum in order to participate. That would be silly. I said Penn doesn't require the participant to pay anything until your salary reaches 80k. That's different from say, UCLA, where if you're making 75k for example, you have to pay a part/whole of the IBR nut.

[Otunga]

Given twenty's input on the Penn LRAP, I actually like that choice much more than UCLA. That's a nice LRAP and their numbers are significantly better than UCLA's. At minimum, Penn should get you elsewhere on the east coast if you want that, OP. With UCLA, it's probably its immediate area or PA since that's home.