U of Denver, U of Oregon, or Lewis & Clark? Job markets? Forum

[erh9796]

I have been accepted to the University of Denver, the University of Oregon, and Lewis & Clark with scholarships of $21,000/year (contingent upon 3.0+ GPA), $20,000/year + $8,000 the first year (unconditional), and $12,000/year (contingent upon 2.6+ GPA), respectively. I am also on the waiting list at the University of Colorado, but doubt I would receive any scholarship even if I do ultimately get accepted. I am looking for any advice as far as smart decision-making between these schools. The cost and job market in each city/state is especially of concern to me, so any comparison there would be much appreciated.

I am interested in criminal defense law and international law (regarding social areas of law, generally, rather than economic).

I may consider asking L&C for an increase in scholarship because it is significantly more expensive than the others, but I'm not convinced that choosing L&C even with a bigger scholarship would be wise seeing that I am not practicing environmental law and the school is not well-known otherwise. I love Portland, but the school itself is of course of the utmost importance here.

I gravitate toward Denver because I am uncertain of where in the West I want to practice following graduation. I have heard, compared to the other schools, that Denver is more marketable as far as obtaining jobs in other states. Would it be difficult to obtain a job in Portland as a Denver law graduate?

Any input comparing the schools is appreciated.

[cron1834]

You want jobs that are hard to find and don't pay well.

You're going into a lot of debt.

You're targeting metro areas that are in high demand.

You want a school at which only about half of graduates get real employment.

Unless you have an independent source of income and/or a rich family, you should probably rethink this.

[metroidbum]

I would not go to law school with any of these options.

If your GPA is high enough, retaking may be a good option. Otherwise, don't go to law school with choices like these.

[stewart23]

Check out the score report for the schools you are looking into on Law School Transparency. This will give you an idea of the employment opportunities and costs of these schools. The TLS community can come off as harsh, but by saying retake/don't go you are being encouraged to seriously assess the very real risk you are about to take.

[rickgrimes69]

I have been accepted to the University of Denver, the University of Oregon, and Lewis & Clark with scholarships of $21,000/year (contingent upon 3.0+ GPA), $20,000/year + $8,000 the first year (unconditional), and $12,000/year (contingent upon 2.6+ GPA), respectively. I am also on the waiting list at the University of Colorado, but doubt I would receive any scholarship even if I do ultimately get accepted. I am looking for any advice as far as smart decision-making between these schools. The cost and job market in each city/state is especially of concern to me, so any comparison there would be much appreciated.

I am interested in criminal defense law and international law (regarding social areas of law, generally, rather than economic).

Not gonna happen from any of those schools. They're all too expensive anyway. Retake or don't go.

[PepperJack]

Who told you that Denver is marketable to other states? You need to focus less on what random uninformed people mention, and more on objective data when making life changing decisions. You should go to Denver if you are really set this is what you want, know you'd need to be in the top 10% of the class to be competitive for these jobs and have only about 1 in 4 shot of being able to live a working class to middle class livelihood 10 years out. If this is objectively doable for you then power to you, and god speed.

[Bikeflip]

This head-to-head needs to be bookmarked, OP.


Note that none of these schools allows for much mobility, and also note how many students lost scholarships. This is to say nothing about the underemployment score. Plus international law in the Mountain Best? I call flame.

[erh9796]

Thanks for the input. I understand my situation is not great. Trust me when I say that I have spent numerous days and nights wildy concerned about this decision.

I realize the job market is not anywhere near ideal. I am going to law school. Period. I don't know what else i would do at this point. I am asking for input regarding my best options, though those might be less than ideal.

Currently, I have additional funds of ~$40,000 that I've saved from being a paralegal. I have experience in an immigration law office and in an office focused mainly in medical malpractice and property taxation disputes.

Working in Portland or Denver would be great. Those are not my only options and it is likely I will have to work elsewhere in a smaller community. Regardless, I am asking for my best chances.

I will undoubtedly be actively and thoroughly networking throughout law school. I realize it is very difficult to obtain a job, but this is what I am determined to make happen. I am simply looking for guidance under these circumstances.

[moralsentiments]

I have been accepted to the University of Denver, the University of Oregon, and Lewis & Clark with scholarships of $21,000/year (contingent upon 3.0+ GPA), $20,000/year + $8,000 the first year (unconditional), and $12,000/year (contingent upon 2.6+ GPA), respectively. I am also on the waiting list at the University of Colorado, but doubt I would receive any scholarship even if I do ultimately get accepted. I am looking for any advice as far as smart decision-making between these schools. The cost and job market in each city/state is especially of concern to me, so any comparison there would be much appreciated.

I am interested in criminal defense law and international law (regarding social areas of law, generally, rather than economic).

I may consider asking L&C for an increase in scholarship because it is significantly more expensive than the others, but I'm not convinced that choosing L&C even with a bigger scholarship would be wise seeing that I am not practicing environmental law and the school is not well-known otherwise. I love Portland, but the school itself is of course of the utmost importance here.

I gravitate toward Denver because I am uncertain of where in the West I want to practice following graduation. I have heard, compared to the other schools, that Denver is more marketable as far as obtaining jobs in other states. Would it be difficult to obtain a job in Portland as a Denver law graduate?

Any input comparing the schools is appreciated.

I thought about responding to your post when I first saw it, but I refrained because I thought I couldn't do it in a polite way. As an 0L, I'm not going to give you any advice, other than I think you should take some time (few days maybe) and lurk TLS. Go to the bottom of the screen and type in "denver", "oregon", "colorado" etc into the search forum field. It's evident that whatever research you've done thus far has been poor based on some of what's in your OP.

"I am interested in criminal defense law and international law" - if you had done your research, you would know that this is virtually unattainable from any of the schools you mentioned.

"I am not practicing environmental law and the school is not well-known otherwise." - if you had down your research, you would know that specialty rankings amount to nothing.

"I gravitate toward Denver because I am uncertain of where in the West I want to practice following graduation."- if you had done your research you would know that denver is a regional school with very little if any weight outside CO. If you aren't sure you want to be in CO, denver is a big mistake.
"I have heard, compared to the other schools, that Denver is more marketable as far as obtaining jobs in other states." - compared to what other schools, Thomas Jefferson? If you had done your research you would know the portability of a law degree from Denver.

In conclusion, the reason I seem a bit pissed here, and why you haven't received the advice you want is because you are the reason why many mega-posters here on TLS are assholes to 0Ls. You don't do your research, then you ask questions that have been answered multiple times on TLS that a simple forum search could have produced. the reason you don't want to use this forum again is because hundreds of people JUST LIKE YOU asked the same questions as you over and over again without having taken the time to read some threads first.

[killer133]

Thanks for the input. I understand my situation is not great. Trust me when I say that I have spent numerous days and nights wildy concerned about this decision.

I realize the job market is not anywhere near ideal. I am going to law school. Period. I don't know what else i would do at this point. I am asking for input regarding my best options, though those might be less than ideal. Currently, I have additional funds of ~$40,000 that I've saved from being a paralegal. I have experience in an immigration law office and in an office focused mainly in medical malpractice and property taxation disputes.

1. Not knowing what to do is an awesome reason to attend law school (mockery)

2. You might be better off staying paralegal, at least in financial terms.

3. Otherwise, unless you are top 10% of your graduating class, you will have $100K+ debt with job that pays you less than $45K/yr upon graduation.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Just graduated from CU and you can send me a PM if you'd like. Criminal defense isn't a crazy goal but that's a very low paying field... Unless you are a Frank Azar type.

International law from DU or basically any school is only worth the intangible fuzzy learned feeling one might get from focusing in a hip area of the law. You won't get a job in international law. If you speak spanish, you can get a job in immigration law, but your starting salary will be very close to the salary you earned as a paralegal

[rickgrimes69]

In conclusion, the reason I seem a bit pissed here, and why you haven't received the advice you want is because you are the reason why many mega-posters here on TLS are assholes to 0Ls. You don't do your research, then you ask questions that have been answered multiple times on TLS that a simple forum search could have produced. the reason you don't want to use this forum again is because hundreds of people JUST LIKE YOU asked the same questions as you over and over again without having taken the time to read some threads first.

[PepperJack]

With this stuff, they're not assholes. People are more direct when they can be anonymous. The problem isn't the job market for these schools. These schools were never placing well enough to justify these costs pre-2008. Look at the law firms paying what you need to service this debt. Look at how many partners/associates are from these schools. Put 1 and 1 together. This is a Lewis and Clark problem, not a recession problem.

It sucks to have a plan and for people to say your plan sucks. You put work into it but understand you can walk away with nothing lost but time. By going forward you're 90 percent likely to shoot yourself in the foot.

[erh9796]

I disagree that some are not being assholes. There is a more tasteful way to express your experiences, research, and opinions to someone in a similar position to what you have been in in the past than to attack them.

I have done a lot of research myself, despite what it may seem. I have visited all of these schools as well.

I know that international law is generally pursued and jobs obtained generally at the top-rated schools. Denver does have an international law program, however. L&C's second-most popular (though who knows how legitimate) program is criminal law. Oregon also has a criminal law program.

Perhaps it is my naïveté, but if a school's specialty is ranked number one and I want to practice that kind of law specifically, I would want to attend that school over others (assuming the overall school itself is fairly comparable to the other schools that I could consider).

When i say compared to the other schools, Denver is more marketable, I mean compared to the schools that I am looking at, obviously - not top 12, or whatever schools above the one I am going to because there is no doubt that they would have a better chance moving states. I wouldn't be opposed to working and living in Denver if that is how everything worked out following graduation.

In conclusion, I am a little shocked at how condescending you are. I have researched in the forums, but I wanted a comparison specifically of those schools I'm interested in. If you don't have constructive criticism, then don't comment.

[timbs4339]

I know that international law is generally pursued and jobs obtained generally at the top-rated schools. Denver does have an international law program, however. L&C's second-most popular (though who knows how legitimate) program is criminal law. Oregon also has a criminal law program.

Perhaps it is my naïveté, but if a school's specialty is ranked number one and I want to practice that kind of law specifically, I would want to attend that school over others (assuming the overall school itself is fairly comparable to the other schools that I could consider).

This has been explained ad nauseum on this board. Specialty rankings and programs are flame. International law especially. EVERY SINGLE law school probably has some sort of international law program. Every. Single. School. That's because there are a million law professors who want to teach it not because there are many jobs in it. USNWR specialty rankings measure one thing- what law professors think about the scholarly output of other law professors. Nobody seriously thinks that the #1 environmental or international law school outplaces a T14 in those areas. In fact it might be more difficult to go to that school since half the rest of the students are going there with the same misconception about the job market.

I asked this question of another 0L recently- what do you think the tangible benefits of a specialty program are that you couldn't get at another law school? Describe how you think law school is going to be different if you are part of a specialty program.

As for criminal law, it's definitely doable from any of those schools. But you need to be damn sure you are committed. It's mentally tough work, and if you are on the defense side, your clients are going to be difficult to work with and unsophisticated. And pay in Oregon or Colorado is going to be around 40-50K starting. Not for the casual law student, in fact without internships during law school it's going to be hard to convince a PD/DA office to hire you as an entry-level.

[Paul Campos]

I have been accepted to the University of Denver, the University of Oregon, and Lewis & Clark with scholarships of $21,000/year (contingent upon 3.0+ GPA), $20,000/year + $8,000 the first year (unconditional), and $12,000/year (contingent upon 2.6+ GPA), respectively. I am also on the waiting list at the University of Colorado, but doubt I would receive any scholarship even if I do ultimately get accepted. I am looking for any advice as far as smart decision-making between these schools. The cost and job market in each city/state is especially of concern to me, so any comparison there would be much appreciated.

I am interested in criminal defense law and international law (regarding social areas of law, generally, rather than economic).

I may consider asking L&C for an increase in scholarship because it is significantly more expensive than the others, but I'm not convinced that choosing L&C even with a bigger scholarship would be wise seeing that I am not practicing environmental law and the school is not well-known otherwise. I love Portland, but the school itself is of course of the utmost importance here.

I gravitate toward Denver because I am uncertain of where in the West I want to practice following graduation. I have heard, compared to the other schools, that Denver is more marketable as far as obtaining jobs in other states. Would it be difficult to obtain a job in Portland as a Denver law graduate?

Any input comparing the schools is appreciated.

Jobs in public international law are basically unobtainable for graduates of non-elite law schools. Speciality rankings mean nothing for employment purposes, which is all you should be concerned about.

It would be extremely difficult to get a legal job in portland as a DU law graduate. With the exception of a handful of national schools, legal hiring is essentially regional, and even local. DU has a strong alumni network in the Denver area, and to a lesser extent in other parts of Colorado. Very few DU graduates practice law outside Colorado.

If you want to do private criminal defense work, you'll probably need to first get a job as a public defender, as private firms that specialize in criminal defense usually don't hire entry-level graduates. Getting a job as a PD is difficult. Colorado has a well-funded PD system, but competition for PD jobs is fierce, starting salaries are at around $48,000, and caseloads of 200 or more are routine.

[Mullens]

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

The above is in the sticky on this forum and should be included in your original post.

Based on the information that is available in your post, I suggest really looking at the cost and expected outcome from each of these schools. Imho, all of the schools you are thinking about should probably only be attended in a very narrow set of circumstances, all of which include a full-ride scholarship, a desire to work in the market where the school is located (none of these degrees will travel and you will need to heavily network while in school), and focused and modest career goals. Economically, I think you are spending too much money (over 200k in my estimation) for too low of an expected outcome. I just simply don't think it's a good idea for you to attend any of these schools at the current cost.

To be clear, I am certainly not saying that you should never go to law school and pursue your dreams of being a lawyer, the costs of your current options are simply too high and your goals are too unclear. You probably need to retake the LSAT as an investment in your future.

I hope my post doesn't come across as being rude because I really do hope you have a good outcome, it just might require stepping back from your current options and rethinking this decision. Please don't ruin your future.


ETA: Also, google the name Paul Campos (who is actually the poster above me and not someone posting under his name) and you'll see his advice comes from a place of authority.

[Bikeflip]

I disagree that some are not being assholes. There is a more tasteful way to express your experiences, research, and opinions to someone in a similar position to what you have been in in the past than to attack them.

I have done a lot of research myself, despite what it may seem. I have visited all of these schools as well.

I know that international law is generally pursued and jobs obtained generally at the top-rated schools. Denver does have an international law program, however. L&C's second-most popular (though who knows how legitimate) program is criminal law. Oregon also has a criminal law program.

Perhaps it is my naïveté, but if a school's specialty is ranked number one and I want to practice that kind of law specifically, I would want to attend that school over others (assuming the overall school itself is fairly comparable to the other schools that I could consider).

When i say compared to the other schools, Denver is more marketable, I mean compared to the schools that I am looking at, obviously - not top 12, or whatever schools above the one I am going to because there is no doubt that they would have a better chance moving states. I wouldn't be opposed to working and living in Denver if that is how everything worked out following graduation.

In conclusion, I am a little shocked at how condescending you are. I have researched in the forums, but I wanted a comparison specifically of those schools I'm interested in. If you don't have constructive criticism, then don't comment.

First, everyone's criticism towards you has been constructive. You just don't like what people are saying.

Second, if speciality rankings mattered, these schools would have much higher jerb placements.

[Kimikho]

I gravitate toward Denver because I am uncertain of where in the West I want to practice following graduation. I have heard, compared to the other schools, that Denver is more marketable as far as obtaining jobs in other states. Would it be difficult to obtain a job in Portland as a Denver law graduate?

Any input comparing the schools is appreciated.

It is difficult getting a job in Portland as a Yale graduate.

[Standard 0L warning]

The Pacific Northwest is one of the most insular markets in the country, and its already flooded by their own graduates. Why would someone look at someone from Denver when they can hire people from UW, Seattle U, Gonzaga, Willamette, Lewis and Clark, or U of O? 115 people will graduate in the top ten percent from those schools. Then remember how many people from California schools want to move north, and then the T14.

Working in Portland or Denver would be great. Those are not my only options and it is likely I will have to work elsewhere in a smaller community. Regardless, I am asking for my best chances.

Have you driven the I-5 corridor? There are no smaller communities in the Pacific Northwest that have jobs that will pay off that debt.

Do you have in-state tuition at Oregon? Do you have any ties to either of those cities? People can't give you advice because your goals aren't realistic and they can't ethically suggest you attend these schools.

[PepperJack]

I disagree that some are not being assholes. There is a more tasteful way to express your experiences, research, and opinions to someone in a similar position to what you have been in in the past than to attack them.

I have done a lot of research myself, despite what it may seem. I have visited all of these schools as well.

I know that international law is generally pursued and jobs obtained generally at the top-rated schools. Denver does have an international law program, however. L&C's second-most popular (though who knows how legitimate) program is criminal law. Oregon also has a criminal law program.

Perhaps it is my naïveté, but if a school's specialty is ranked number one and I want to practice that kind of law specifically, I would want to attend that school over others (assuming the overall school itself is fairly comparable to the other schools that I could consider).

When i say compared to the other schools, Denver is more marketable, I mean compared to the schools that I am looking at, obviously - not top 12, or whatever schools above the one I am going to because there is no doubt that they would have a better chance moving states. I wouldn't be opposed to working and living in Denver if that is how everything worked out following graduation.

In conclusion, I am a little shocked at how condescending you are. I have researched in the forums, but I wanted a comparison specifically of those schools I'm interested in. If you don't have constructive criticism, then don't comment.

My honest advice per your question would be to say that because there's not a major difference between these schools and you are far more likely to be relying on the tax payer bailing you out than getting a job in law from them, you should at least have fun. Law school isn't fun and is a lot of work, a major life sacrifice. It's really annoying to go to one and never practice law while also getting soul crushing debt. Therefore, you should start to prioritize having fun while in school to take advantage of what may be your most enjoyable years. Pick the city you like the best, and focus on relaxing, socializing and having a good time. You've earned it.

You also don't realize how hard it is to get a job in Denver. There are people at those top 12's with great grades who can't get back to Denver. Again, don't focus much on the rankings and jobs. 11% v. 10% is not a major difference. Focus on having fun! Go wehre you'd like to party for a few years. The odds of you ever paying off the debt are so low that it is crazy to focus on a 1 in 20 chance v. a 1 in 30 chance. Just go where you will have fun because life will likely seem very bleak in 3 years.