Berkeley v NYU Forum

[cotiger]

I'm having a really difficult time choosing between these two, so I thought I might crowd source it out a bit.

Would graduate from both with low debt (~$50k).

Ties to Dallas, CO, and NYC. No ties to CA, but I have no problem going back to NY if my grades aren't at the top. No desire to go back to TX.

Honestly crushing on Berkeley mostly due to sun, warmth, the ability to go on a hike, etc. NYC is cool, but I would love to go back west. I have no particular preference for vault rankings (or whatever that's a proxy for), and I'm okay with the additional employment risk at Berkeley in exchange for the lifestyle factors. Based on this alone, I give a slight advantage to Berk.

However, what's stopping me is my interest in land use/real estate/urban development, etc. I was a math-econ major in UG and my research/thesis focused on urban economic composition and its effects on growth. NYU has the Furman Center, which looks fucking awesome. All this cool research and data and stuff on exactly things that I'm interested in. It's tough to find similar things at Berk, and they mostly have the word justice in them, which, while I don't know exactly what that means, it sounds annoying (I would've totally picked uchi for the law&econ stuff if it weren't for the craptastic chicago weather/location, so take that for whatever you want).

I know that this is mostly a personal decision, but I'm wondering if that Furman Center stuff is actually worth much in practice (both as a student and then professionally) or if it's mostly just a flame.

Thanks!

[mst]

I would reach out to the Furman Center (or ask admissions if they will put you in touch) prior to making any decision. I don't know much about it but I know there is an application process involved... it isn't simply a clinic that you can walk straight into after 1L year. You should understand what the chances of working there are and what the work/research you will be doing will entail prior to basing your decision on it.

[cotiger]

I would reach out to the Furman Center (or ask admissions if they will put you in touch) prior to making any decision. I don't know much about it but I know there is an application process involved... it isn't simply a clinic that you can walk straight into after 1L year. You should understand what the chances of working there are and what the work/research you will be doing will entail prior to basing your decision on it.

It's not an application type thing. From what I can read, the major impacts for students are just that they have a ton of professors/courses in that area both in the law school and in conjunction with the urban planning school.

I work near NYU, so I'm planning on paying them a visit soon, but it's always tough to figure out how much of what they say about student opportunities is true vs bs.

Also I'm just unsure about what impact the professors and opportunities might have on your career. Like, if it's purely an academic experience, then I'd just go to berk. But if it's stuff that might actually have a career impact, then that's another story.

I realize that no one has a definitive answer, but it's nice to just talk it out.

[koalacity]

If you want to end up in CA (i.e. you'd rather be in CA than NYC, which is how it sounds to me), I'd go to Berkeley. My understanding from talking to students at both places is that you'd need better grades at NYU than at Berkeley to get CA (students at Berk were surprisingly optimistic about the ability to get CA placement even with meh grades). I think the no-CA-ties issue will be a not insignificant barrier to CA placement from NYU, whereas Berk people claim that going to Berkeley is enough of a tie for employers.

From a purely anecdotal standpoint, if you're interested in land use law, that seems to be a bigger/more common area to specialize in out west (not just in CA, but in the southwest/mountain west generally-PM me if you want more details about why I say this), which would point to Berkeley. I have no idea about the Furman Center and how much value/what purpose it would serve if you went to NYU.

[cron1834]

If you're considering NYU, then how can you rule out Chicago based on the weather? They're not THAT different.

If the UChi comment is coded language for Repub status, then you should go there

[middlemarch]

I don't know much about the Furman Center, but NYU centers do have active student engagement (I'm thinking of the Brennan Center for Justice, for one). I also know that Prof. Vicki Been was just appointed to be head of NYC's Department of Housing Preservation and Development. I'm sure NYU law kids would have a great opportunity to work or intern there while she's in that position, and with De Blasio's sights on more affordable housing it could be an exciting time for urban development in the city.

[worldtraveler]

Berkeley has an excellent grad program in urban planning and you could take some courses in that if you wanted.

[politibro44]

Berkeley has an excellent grad program in urban planning and you could take some courses in that if you wanted.

The Goldman School (policy) is also top-notch and quant-heavy if that's your jam. I'm pretty sure their econ dept. has some heavyweights too.

[cotiger]

If you want to end up in CA (i.e. you'd rather be in CA than NYC, which is how it sounds to me), I'd go to Berkeley. My understanding from talking to students at both places is that you'd need better grades at NYU than at Berkeley to get CA (students at Berk were surprisingly optimistic about the ability to get CA placement even with meh grades). I think the no-CA-ties issue will be a not insignificant barrier to CA placement from NYU, whereas Berk people claim that going to Berkeley is enough of a tie for employers.

From a purely anecdotal standpoint, if you're interested in land use law, that seems to be a bigger/more common area to specialize in out west (not just in CA, but in the southwest/mountain west generally-PM me if you want more details about why I say this), which would point to Berkeley. I have no idea about the Furman Center and how much value/what purpose it would serve if you went to NYU.

Well, if I went to NYU, I wouldn't try for CA. I like NYC, I just have a hankering for the west.

If you're considering NYU, then how can you rule out Chicago based on the weather? They're not THAT different.

If the UChi comment is coded language for Repub status, then you should go there

My SO is from Chicago, and she says it's significantly different, both in terms of temperature and grayness. Every time I've been there in the winter it's been absolutely brutal.

The UChi comment was just to indicate that I really love economic/tradeoffs analysis of issues that NYU seems to have in this area but Berkeley I'm not so sure.

I also know that Prof. Vicki Been was just appointed to be head of NYC's Department of Housing Preservation and Development. I'm sure NYU law kids would have a great opportunity to work or intern there while she's in that position, and with De Blasio's sights on more affordable housing it could be an exciting time for urban development in the city.

That's interesting to hear, thanks. I had been looking her up before, she seems really great.

[cotiger]

Berkeley has an excellent grad program in urban planning and you could take some courses in that if you wanted.

So does Berkeley allow you to take courses in other schools to count towards your degree? That would be pretty ideal. I had heard that their grad program in urban planning is pretty top notch and that at least back in the day there was some intermingling with the law school, but I couldn't find anything current.

[iliketurtles123]

I don't know about specialization but generally, if you want CA only, go Berk. If you want CA + NY, go NYU.

[WhiskeynCoke]

I would reach out to the Furman Center (or ask admissions if they will put you in touch) prior to making any decision. I don't know much about it but I know there is an application process involved... it isn't simply a clinic that you can walk straight into after 1L year. You should understand what the chances of working there are and what the work/research you will be doing will entail prior to basing your decision on it.

It's not an application type thing. From what I can read, the major impacts for students are just that they have a ton of professors/courses in that area both in the law school and in conjunction with the urban planning school.

I work near NYU, so I'm planning on paying them a visit soon, but it's always tough to figure out how much of what they say about student opportunities is true vs bs.

Also I'm just unsure about what impact the professors and opportunities might have on your career. Like, if it's purely an academic experience, then I'd just go to berk. But if it's stuff that might actually have a career impact, then that's another story.

I realize that no one has a definitive answer, but it's nice to just talk it out.

Yes, it will be more of an academic experience than anything else. Having connections through the professors can help, but it's very unlikely you'd land a job you're not otherwise competitive for through the connections/program alone. The biggest benefit is that it will establish your interest in that area of law, which you could also do at Berkeley (you can also take classes in any of Berkeley's other grad programs.. which are really good). What will far more greatly impact your future career choices is geography.

You WILL NOT get to the bay area from NYU with 0 ties. You may be able to land LA if your grades are nuts, but it will still probably be a crap shoot. But, you can get to NY from Berkeley fairly easily, and B itself is a good enough tie to land CA, if you can advocate your interest in the interview. NYU probably has a decent advantage when it comes to landing the super top NYC Vault firms (they probably go slightly deeper into the class in general).

Basically, don't make your choice based on some "prestigious academic program." Yes, it's mostly a flame. It doesn't mean nothing, but by no means should it outweigh your geographic preferences. Berkeley is perfectly safe for big law, as long as you're not a complete social retard. I will say, though, if you're bottom 1/3, you better be charming or have something else to offer because your odds drop to like 50/50. (this is when you bid NYC hard)

- If you want to work in CA go to B
- If you want to live in CA for 3 years, then go to NYC, go to B
- If you want to maximize your chances of landing a V10 NYC firm at all costs, go to NYU

EDIT: Yes, Berkeley gives you credit towards your JD for taking classes from other programs. I think the max you can get is either 10 or 15 though.

[cron1834]

Weather comparison.

I'm also from Chi. It gets a bad rap relative to the east coast. They just had their worst winter in a generation or two, but the typical winters are not dissimilar.

[Redamon1]

Berkeley has a top-notch environmental law program, including courses in land-use law, public lands, project development & finance, land development, among many others. Check out the course listing. Did you not meet people from ELQ during your visit to Boalt? It's one of the top environmental law journals in the country. Did you check out the Center for Energy Law and the Environment? You can also do a directed study with a professor if you'd like. And yes, you can take classes from across campus for credit and many other grad schools have great offerings in the urban planning / environment / energy area. If you still have doubts, as an admitted student you should email some of the professors and ask for guidance. You can try Farber, Biber, and Infelise as a start.

NYU does have a very strong environmental program, but Berkeley honestly has as much if not more to offer. Also, sounds like you've figured this out already but many grads land jobs on the East Coast in case you decide to move back East, so I wouldn't let that be a concern.

ETA: I saw that you were confused about some of the programs/offerings. Feel free to PM with questions.

[cotiger]

Ok you guys are making me feel much better about Berkeley.

Their website is just so much more difficult to navigate and find out this info, whereas NYU's is all pretty and laid out right in your face. But yeah, I've now found in the academic rules section where you can take courses in other schools, and those BELS centers look cool. I hadn't thought to look in the Environmental Law course section, but digging into that a bit does reveal a lot of stuff I'm interested in.

I didn't get a chance to go to ASW, and the matching scholarship deadline is before I was going to get to visit, so I haven't really gotten a chance to talk to people. Hence, this thread.

Thank you all so much for your assistance!!

[worldtraveler]

Berkeley has an excellent grad program in urban planning and you could take some courses in that if you wanted.

So does Berkeley allow you to take courses in other schools to count towards your degree? That would be pretty ideal. I had heard that their grad program in urban planning is pretty top notch and that at least back in the day there was some intermingling with the law school, but I couldn't find anything current.

You can take up to 10 credits and count them, so long as they are grad classes and you have approval.

There was this awesome grad course in urban planning where they enroll people from every department and put people in teams to work on environmental/urban problems. So you have 1 engineer, 1 lawyer, 1 humanities person, and 1 journalist or something working together. I never got to take it but it's supposed to be amazing.

[midwest17]

Weather comparison.

I'm also from Chi. It gets a bad rap relative to the east coast. They just had their worst winter in a generation or two, but the typical winters are not dissimilar.

I realize this is kind of a moot point, but picking NYC over Chicago for the weather is absurd. They're very similar, and Chicago in general is a lot more pleasant. The advantages of NYC are in the cultural opportunities and the density, not environmental factors.

[barrelofmonkeys]

Weather comparison.

I'm also from Chi. It gets a bad rap relative to the east coast. They just had their worst winter in a generation or two, but the typical winters are not dissimilar.

I realize this is kind of a moot point, but picking NYC over Chicago for the weather is absurd. They're very similar, and Chicago in general is a lot more pleasant. The advantages of NYC are in the cultural opportunities and the density, not environmental factors.

"Chicago in general is a lot more pleasant"

Anyway, cotiger, you should come to NYU, because you seem cool.

[midwest17]

Weather comparison.

I'm also from Chi. It gets a bad rap relative to the east coast. They just had their worst winter in a generation or two, but the typical winters are not dissimilar.

I realize this is kind of a moot point, but picking NYC over Chicago for the weather is absurd. They're very similar, and Chicago in general is a lot more pleasant. The advantages of NYC are in the cultural opportunities and the density, not environmental factors.

"Chicago in general is a lot more pleasant"

Anyway, cotiger, you should come to NYU, because you seem cool.

Stay in denial as long as you want.

[Dr.Zer0]

Midwest and BOM are both wrong. Just come to the best coast, the west coast.

[cotiger]

Weather comparison.

I'm also from Chi. It gets a bad rap relative to the east coast. They just had their worst winter in a generation or two, but the typical winters are not dissimilar.

I realize this is kind of a moot point, but picking NYC over Chicago for the weather is absurd. They're very similar, and Chicago in general is a lot more pleasant. The advantages of NYC are in the cultural opportunities and the density, not environmental factors.

I've never lived there, but I was just going off of people I know who've gone Chi->Boston and Chi->NYC saying how they were shocked how much more livable east coast winters were. Plus, checking dat weather app this winter... eek!

Regardless of the actual level of difference, cold and gloomy weather was a handy mental image/shortcut for the several ways that the location was a negative for me.

Not that I wouldn't have been thrilled to go there if they had offered me a fat scholly.

There was this awesome grad course in urban planning where they enroll people from every department and put people in teams to work on environmental/urban problems. So you have 1 engineer, 1 lawyer, 1 humanities person, and 1 journalist or something working together. I never got to take it but it's supposed to be amazing.

This sounds amazing. I'll definitely look into it.

Alright, I've finally made my decision. Going to Berkeley! Thanks so much to everyone for helping me with my cold feet!

[worldtraveler]

Good luck! You'll love it.

[Redamon1]

Congrats!

[cotiger]

Update time.

Just withdrew. Realized that if I was so interested in urban planning/development issues I should do something directly related to that first. If in a couple of years I'm still interested in the legal side, I'll reapply then.

Thanks for all of you guys' help thoughout this whole process, and good luck to all starting in the fall!

[Dr.Zer0]

Bold move Cotiger. Hope thinks work out for you!