Duke $$ or don't go?? Forum

[OliveBC]

-The schools you are considering
I've already deposited at Duke

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
According to LS22's spreadsheet about $159K (but I will also have 30K of undergrad debt accumulating interest while in LS)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From the southeast, biggest ties to ATL and Charlotte.I don't have a huge preference about where I work though the south is probably my first choice.

-Your general career goals
Maybe midlaw, but I'd be most interested in a plaintiff's firm or gov job. Honestly I know its great experience, but I am terrified of being incredibly miserable but stuck in biglaw because of debt.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
170/3.78

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Once (probably could have studied harder-but idk)


tl;dr:
K-JD and I have what I think is a great offer from Duke, but I'm terrified of debt. Am I crazy to turn it down? Or should I suffer the embarrassment of telling everyone in my family I'm not going to LS this year after all, get some WE, retake the LSAT and come back to law school a year or two down the line? Fears are that I won't do any better on the LSAT, won't find meaningful WE, and won't get as generous of an offer as a re-applicant if I bail on Duke now...

[sundontshine]

Why do you want to be a lawyer?

[metroidbum]

That's a lot of debt.

Take a year or two to get work experience and retake the LSAT.

[OliveBC]

Why do you want to be a lawyer?

Honestly I've been sitting here for 10 min trying to articulate my answer to this so that might say something, but basically I want to have a job that feels like it contributes to society but that doesn't require me to be poor (hence p firm or government).

There are probably ways other than law school to get a job like that, but I don't know what they are and my undergrad degrees are pretty useless without graduate schooling of some kind. (If people have suggestions I'd love to hear them though! My degrees are in psych and sociology)

I think I would enjoy being a lawyer if my work is (for the most part) directed towards something I believe in. Would only want to do biglaw (or midlaw) as a stepping stone to something else.

[OliveBC]

That's a lot of debt.

Take a year or two to get work experience and retake the LSAT.

Thanks for the input

[NoLieAbility]

0L with similar numbers.

You're primarily interested in midlaw and government work, you are from the South and want to work there, and you're debt averse. Did you apply to Vandy or UT? I don't think that Duke at that price is an inherently bad thing, but you're paying a premium for prestige on a career arc that doesn't seem particularly prestige-dependent. Those numbers should give you a full-or-near at UT and Vandy, and those seem more in line with your goals.

There's a perception floating around that T14 full rides are universally attainable. They aren't. The key here, from my terminally inexperienced point of view, is making a decision regarding your specific career arc and the amount of debt necessary to finance a shot in that direction.

[SteelPenguin]

Have you looked into paralegal work? That might help give you a better idea of whether or not law is right for you, and it would give you some solid work experience to make your application stronger. Your stats are strong enough that you should still have solid options even without a better score, but if you can improve, retaking might be worth it.

[OliveBC]

0L with similar numbers.

You're primarily interested in midlaw and government work, you are from the South and want to work there, and you're debt averse. Did you apply to Vandy or UT? I don't think that Duke at that price is an inherently bad thing, but you're paying a premium for prestige on a career arc that doesn't seem particularly prestige-dependent. Those numbers should give you a full-or-near at UT and Vandy, and those seem more in line with your goals.

There's a perception floating around that T14 full rides are universally attainable. They aren't. The key here, from my terminally inexperienced point of view, is making a decision regarding your specific career arc and the amount of debt necessary to finance a shot in that direction.

I didn't apply to UT but did apply to Vandy, they gave me 110K and wouldn't negotiate and Duke gave me 105K. I would have absolutely chosen Vandy with a full or almost full ride but with barely more $ than Duke it didn't make sense to me.

[OliveBC]

Have you looked into paralegal work? That might help give you a better idea of whether or not law is right for you, and it would give you some solid work experience to make your application stronger. Your stats are strong enough that you should still have solid options even without a better score, but if you can improve, retaking might be worth it.

I have considered it, but I don't have certification or anything like that. I'm wishing at this point that I'd applied for jobs and law school at the same time so I'd perhaps have some real alternatives on the table, but unfortunately the true terror of debt didn't really start to set in until I sent in my deposit...

[NoLieAbility]

I didn't apply to UT but did apply to Vandy, they gave me 110K and wouldn't negotiate and Duke gave me 105K. I would have absolutely chosen Vandy with a full or almost full ride but with barely more $ than Duke it didn't make sense to me.

The Duke cash fairy strikes again.

There's a roughly $5,000 tuition disparity between Duke and Vandy, which isn't really enough to make Vandy's $1,666/yr extra worth considering. I know you said Vandy wouldn't negotiate, but did your initial e-mail use Duke as a chit? There's a regional competition there which may prompt Vandy to up their offer. Not for certain, though possible.

I always advocate UT with these numbers because they will drop the out-of-state, and a $93,000 offer on $32,000 tuition is awesome. If you didn't apply, though, you didn't apply - and if you're looking at the South-East, the distance might be prohibitive for you. I don't have those numbers offhand.

If Duke gave me $105,000, I'd probably take them up on it. It gives you options to make decisions at graduation and each level - BigLaw, midlaw and IBR-qualifying public interest - has a path to repaying those loans, particularly in an area with a low cost of living.

A lot of this comes down to knowing what you want to do with your JD, which isn't something that is easy to determine as a K-JD.

[MrSebastian]

0L with similar numbers.

You're primarily interested in midlaw and government work, you are from the South and want to work there, and you're debt averse. Did you apply to Vandy or UT? I don't think that Duke at that price is an inherently bad thing, but you're paying a premium for prestige on a career arc that doesn't seem particularly prestige-dependent. Those numbers should give you a full-or-near at UT and Vandy, and those seem more in line with your goals.

There's a perception floating around that T14 full rides are universally attainable. They aren't. The key here, from my terminally inexperienced point of view, is making a decision regarding your specific career arc and the amount of debt necessary to finance a shot in that direction.

^Very true. Duke at that price is solid, and TLSers can be pretty unrealistic about how easily someone can get large amounts of scholarship money at a top school (i.e. if debt at a t14 surpasses ~$120K the default answer is "reapply.")

But assuming you are committed to becoming a lawyer (which obv is a personal decision that TLS can't help you make) then that price is fine. But I would strongly consider big law or at least starting there to pay back your loans faster.

[NoLieAbility]

As a note, I know that Vandy is notorious for refusing to negotiate, but they've done it. Anecdotally, I know someone who used a Virginia offer to push them up after establishing a sincere interest in the school.

[OliveBC]

^Very true. Duke at that price is solid, and TLSers can be pretty unrealistic about how easily someone can get large amounts of scholarship money at a top school (i.e. if debt at a t14 surpasses ~$120K the default answer is "reapply.")

But assuming you are committed to becoming a lawyer (which obv is a personal decision that TLS can't help you make) then that price is fine. But I would strongly consider big law or at least starting there to pay back your loans faster.

Thanks for the input, I am really grateful for the offer I got from Duke and I do think I will end up going. I just kind of descended into a spiral of student loan terror there for a minute.

I always have my worst-case scenario plan to cut losses and drop out after 1st semester if I hate it/fail miserably

[FattyMcFatFat]

Why do you want to be a lawyer?

Honestly I've been sitting here for 10 min trying to articulate my answer to this so that might say something, but basically I want to have a job that feels like it contributes to society but that doesn't require me to be poor (hence p firm or government).

This seems unclear. Are you under the impression that working for the government, as opposed to an efficient entity, will allow you to contribute to society in a meaningful way?

It seems like a plaintiffs' firm might be the way to go for you, but those jobs can be really hard to get.

[killer133]

If I were you, I would go. Unless you score substantially higher (172), your chance of getting this much money out of DUKE (dude, it's the best in the South and T14) is slim. Unless you are confident that you can score higher (due to either 1. you didn't really study and got 170, 2. you were doing 175+ on many pt tests), your table won't get much better than now.

Being said that, I don't know what your undergrad major is, what about just defer 1 year and find some kind of work? Only problem is about deferral a lot of schools don't give you same scholly the following year, I don't know what DUKE does with it.

However, $200K is still a lot of money to pay back. If you are unsure about taking $200K debt (including undergrad), don't go, study harder while you work about 2 years.

[NoLieAbility]

If I were you, I would go. Unless you score substantially higher (172), your chance of getting this much money out of DUKE (dude, it's the best in the South and T14) is slim. Unless you are confident that you can score higher (due to either 1. you didn't really study and got 170, 2. you were doing 175+ on many pt tests), your table won't get much better than now.

Being said that, I don't know what your undergrad major is, what about just defer 1 year and find some kind of work? Only problem is about deferral a lot of schools don't give you same scholly the following year, I don't know what DUKE does with it.

However, $200K is still a lot of money to pay back. If you are unsure about taking $200K debt (including undergrad), don't go, study harder while you work about 2 years.

Why do you keep awkwardly holding the shift key while you type Duke?

I mean, I know it's a complete aside from the purpose of this thread and all, but it wigged me the hell out while reading your post. I felt like there was some kind of subliminal conditioning going on or something.

DRINK MORE OVALTINE

[StateSeal]

Disclosure: 0L.

If you don't have a reason to go to law school (outside of the general desire to do good), don't go - particularly when it entails $159K, plus accumulated interest on another $30K.

The risks associated with withdrawing, attempting to find meaningful work experience (hopefully you will - you're a decently smart cookie, based on your numbers and willingness to reconsider this decision), and further discerning what makes sense for your career path are much lower than the risks associated with accumulating that amount of debt and finding any of the following: a) you don't like law, b) you can't get a job, or c) you can't get a job that you enjoy or that pays enough to make those three years and enormous costs worthwhile.

I have no particular suggestions for psych or sociology, but I would focus on building off of whatever your softs are. Frame the majors as an excellent education while your focus has really been on x issue(s).

I left undergrad with $54K in loans, which made my search for employment throughout senior year very stressful. At the time I knew I didn't want to go to graduate school right away and law school wasn't even on my radar, so entering the workforce was basically my only option anyway. But with two years work experience, I feel like I have a much better grip on the world than I did then. In your case, it sounds like doing similar would be helpful.

Good luck with your decision.

[jbagelboy]

That's a good scholarship from Duke, and a great outcome for your goals. It's not a foolish choice to attend at all if you want to practice law. This just sounds like standard major-life-decision-freakout: it's natural and we all experience it. If you just need a pep talk, I'm sure a friend can provide. If you have deep and enduring doubts about wanting to be an attorney, then get another job and don't revisit this again for a while. Somehow Im thinking this is more the former.

[drawstring]

That is a very good offer for your numbers. I have higher numbers and got the same offer after negotiation.

If you want to be a lawyer and don't feel you can score much higher if at all, I'd take the offer.

[twenty]

but I am terrified of being incredibly miserable but stuck in biglaw because of debt.

Alternatively, you could be incredibly miserable but stuck in government because of debt. The difference being, with biglaw you'd be stuck for 4-5 years, with government you'd be stuck for 10, assuming PSLF doesn't go anywhere -- and then it'd be 20-25.

Plus, we screw people pretty regularly, too.

The one universal factor here is that with close to 200k of debt, you will be stuck somewhere. Whether or not you're miserable during that time you're stuck is pretty much entirely dependant on sheer luck, because you're not going in with a concrete-enough of a picture of what you actually want to do.

[whereskyle]

-The schools you are considering
I've already deposited at Duke

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
According to LS22's spreadsheet about $159K (but I will also have 30K of undergrad debt accumulating interest while in LS)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From the southeast, biggest ties to ATL and Charlotte.I don't have a huge preference about where I work though the south is probably my first choice.

-Your general career goals
Maybe midlaw, but I'd be most interested in a plaintiff's firm or gov job. Honestly I know its great experience, but I am terrified of being incredibly miserable but stuck in biglaw because of debt.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
170/3.78

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Once (probably could have studied harder-but idk)


tl;dr:
K-JD and I have what I think is a great offer from Duke, but I'm terrified of debt. Am I crazy to turn it down? Or should I suffer the embarrassment of telling everyone in my family I'm not going to LS this year after all, get some WE, retake the LSAT and come back to law school a year or two down the line? Fears are that I won't do any better on the LSAT, won't find meaningful WE, and won't get as generous of an offer as a re-applicant if I bail on Duke now...

I'm as debt averse as you are and had a similar offer from uva last year. I chose to sit it out and I ED'd to NU. I'm very happy with the decision.

[NYSprague]

I vote don't go. You are looking at very small and competitive markets. If you aren't sure what you want to do, at least understand the number of jobs available in the your preferred markets and the grade cutoffs. My understanding is that Atlanta is difficult, but I don't know personally.

If you are this debt averse now, how anxious are you going to feel when you owe the money? I couldn't do it.

[whereskyle]

-The schools you are considering
I've already deposited at Duke

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
According to LS22's spreadsheet about $159K (but I will also have 30K of undergrad debt accumulating interest while in LS)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From the southeast, biggest ties to ATL and Charlotte.I don't have a huge preference about where I work though the south is probably my first choice.

-Your general career goals
Maybe midlaw, but I'd be most interested in a plaintiff's firm or gov job. Honestly I know its great experience, but I am terrified of being incredibly miserable but stuck in biglaw because of debt.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
170/3.78

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Once (probably could have studied harder-but idk)


tl;dr:
K-JD and I have what I think is a great offer from Duke, but I'm terrified of debt. Am I crazy to turn it down? Or should I suffer the embarrassment of telling everyone in my family I'm not going to LS this year after all, get some WE, retake the LSAT and come back to law school a year or two down the line? Fears are that I won't do any better on the LSAT, won't find meaningful WE, and won't get as generous of an offer as a re-applicant if I bail on Duke now...

Start hustling on the w/e front to give yourself a good alternative option. I secured a legal assistant/paralegal job in my college town a couple of months out of school. Top law schools admit americorps members all the time, and even Yale admits "dedicated volunteers". I recommend that you aim for a legal assistance job, tho, to see what you think of firm life. Schools, even the best ones, primarily care about numbers anyway, and yours are solid. I'm going to NU, so I may be biased, but I really think that schools 7-13 give access to nearly identical opportunities. When I felt fairly assured of that, I decided that it's just about finding that big scholly. GL.

[whereskyle]

And yeah, my family was all like "Wha?", when I told them that I wasn't taking uva's offer. Now, they're all like, "Oh, good call." Just tell 'em I told you so.

[jk148706]

As a note, I know that Vandy is notorious for refusing to negotiate, but they've done it. Anecdotally, I know someone who used a Virginia offer to push them up after establishing a sincere interest in the school.

Man, that's amazing. I've tried twice with Vandy to no avail. I used an offer from Mich that was significantly more than Vandy and they wouldn't budge. Idk why they won't negotiate